Exclusive Use in National Parks

[PT48]

Fellow Forum members, I am after some information that I can use in relation to a situation that has developed here in Australia.

It concerns national parks (land which, in reality, is owned by the people) in which anglers are able to fish for trout.

So, in such American national parks, have any current day outfitters or guides been given exclusive use, for themselves and their paying clients, of a river or lake? If so, does this access hold sway over the rights of ordinary people who buy a national park pass (including those who don't go there to fish)? Is there any situation where this exclusive use entails access by helicopter (hundreds of flights in a season)? Is there any such situation where such an enterprise involves the establishment of huts for accommodation?

Whilst I have only been to YNP, I strongly doubt that any such situation exists in the USA. If that is true, what core values, held by the American people, mitigate against any such situation ever being tolerated? Also, given that some national parks are located in areas which include wilderness or semi-wilderness, how do Americans feel about the protection of such areas?

Thank you in anticipation of your responses.

Peter

[Gnome]

Peter

there is 1 outfitter permitted to do jet boat trips into the lower end of the gunny gorge but it is not exclusive but it is a 1 and only situation. area could not handle more. AN exclusive situation like you describe needs to be fought and killed!!!

[16parachuteadams]

We here in America have had such situations in a few of our parks. The Great Smoky Mountains NP recently moved to eliminate a similar situation @ Elkmont. When the Park was formed a politically connected group of wealthy Knoxville elite managed to force the Park to grant them continued exclusive use of vacation homes in the Park for 20 years. Somehow the leases were renewed twice for 20 years each. No sewer systems in place, no building standards, little or no maintenance. When the leases finally expired there was great hue and cry over the 'taking' of their 'property' and demands that they be allowed to continue to have exclusive use of the area including their clubhouse. Fortunately the will was there to resist these demands and all properties were emptied. It should be noted that some families were renting these houses out as full time residences rather than using them themselves as stipulated in the leases. The Park service has decided to restore a few of these structures as cultural heritage sites and possibly make them available to the public. Local sentiment favored the razing of the decrepit structures.

[DrLogik]

It's been my experience that some (not all) very wealthy sportsmen who have really deep pockets and are highly connected to government officials will try to either gain an edge, advantage or make a profit from their position of power.

America's National and State Parks are no exception, as has been noted in previous posts. We Americans fiercely protect our freedoms, as do Australian's, and this kind of preferential treatment is addressed through public awareness and then pressure to make them back down. In short, yes, we face similar issues here as well. Keep the faith and the pressure up.

On the flip-side, there are also very wealthy sportsmen in America that fight to keep our National Parks free of this kind of, abuse.

[snorider]

Peter,
That sounds like you have lawsuit in the making!
Organize citizens, identify like minded legal support, contact you representatives in government and push back. That is the only way you will change the situation.

[PT48]

Thank you for the replies. Examples where exclusive use was given but has been rescinded are very useful.
My understanding with YNP is that once you have purchased a pass you can wander the park and fish pretty much where ever you like. I also believe that there have been some pack-horse operations which access the more remote areas but their rights are not exclusive.
In my submission I want to highlight YNP as an exemplar - the world's first national park, the most famous national park, the place which is so special that it has been opened up for all to experience, even citizens of other countries. A wonderful manifestation of egalitarian principals.
No comments about the need to preserve remaining tracts of wilderness?

[Bee]

FWIW there are private inholdings through leaseholds for residential or other uses in many many of the US National Parks. The one that existed in the Smokies at Elkmont in the GSMNP is only one example. There is also a whole other side to the allegations of the previous posters about the Element history and impacts . IMO this is not the forum for that discussion though.

[Hellmtflies]

Thank you for the replies. Examples where exclusive use was given but has been rescinded are very useful.
My understanding with YNP is that once you have purchased a pass you can wander the park and fish pretty much where ever you like. I also believe that there have been some pack-horse operations which access the more remote areas but their rights are not exclusive.
In my submission I want to highlight YNP as an exemplar - the world's first national park, the most famous national park, the place which is so special that it has been opened up for all to experience, even citizens of other countries. A wonderful manifestation of egalitarian principals.
No comments about the need to preserve remaining tracts of wilderness?

Well said. To me, for a number of different reasons, YNP is the center of the universe. Period.

[tunafart]

Hi Peter -
Canada has a long history allowing cooperative, exclusive use of broad expanses of public lands you may want to study.
The Quebec ZEC system is now some 40 years old. Other areas in Ontario I have accessed via government permit
holders have been well managed in my experience.
There is on on-going debate on the effectiveness and legitimacy of the system, but it seems to work.
If you want fly-in access to Canadian fishing, the means to do it are managed under this system.
Here is a short discussion, much more available on-line:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3784089

[PT48]

Thanks tunafart, I will have a look at that. Bee, I am only after facts and expressions of the values that Americans believe should, and do, apply to their national parks. You can't believe the vitriol that this issue has generated in Australia.

[dublhaul]

There is plenty of room for misstatements and misunderstandings of who can/does use the US National Parks (which is not to say that what follows is absolutely correct either!). The US National Park system is overseen by the National Park Service (NPS) within the Department of the Interior. The NPS is basically a non-exploitive system. Conversely, the US Forest Service (USFS) is within the US Department of Agriculture and is operated under a "multi-use" system. There is camping, hunting, fishing, but also commercial harvesting of timber. (And I won't even mention other federal lands).

Because some of these federal lands programs were established after portions of the country were settled, there were prior established land claims, resulting in some in-holdings, as described earlier.

Within the NPS' primary focus on maintaining natural systems, there is some control over commercial use. "Commercial use" being profit-oriented, such as guide services, sight-seeing operations, etc. The NPS has systems to grant "commercial use authorizations" to limit and establish standards for such commercial users. For instance, commercial fishing guide services, taking anglers on multi-day trips down a river through a national park, have to be licensed and provide proof of insurance, first aid, etc. The NPS also controls concessions within the park system.

Beyond these commercial/concession uses, the NPS does, in some cases, limit the number of visitors/vehicles within the parks (including roads, campgrounds, etc.).

That said, as far as I know, absent any prior-established in-holdings, there's no way for private citizens to "buy" (lease, reserve, etc) exclusive use of part of a national park. Could be wrong; don't think so.

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, My opinion on US NAtional Parks is the same as John Muir's, whatever that is/was. Wallace Stegner had it right when he called it "America's best idea." Some of the 'well-to-do' have been very supportive, but the rest want to 'rape and pillage', to use some hyperbole. Watch this:

http://www.pbs.org/nationalparks/

Jay Edwards

[Bee]

Some of you might want to google Hunting In Grand Teton National park to see just one example of inholdings in National Parks. There are many more issues where in holders have private property rights in the NPs. The merits of each inholding case are likely very different in each instance and too complicated to address individually, which I was why I did not respond in more detail earlier. In the case of the Tetons it is the State if Wyoming with inholding rights, not the "rich folks" some of you have labeled. Im all for National Parks, with or without wrapping our arms around John Muir , but the fact is many Parks have inholders with rights.

As to the ill intentions of "rich folks" and parks, John Rockefeller 's massive financial donation is why the Great Smokies NP was put together in its beginning. Many of the western Parks, in other examples, were made possible largely with corporate gifts from Railroads . There was a lot of rewriting of history IMO in the PBS series on the creation and basis of the formation of various National Parks , and that "new version" seems to suggest that seers walking around in the wilderness is why/how the Parks were formed. Actually it took huge private financial gifts and leadership to make many of the older Parks .

This is not a discussion I care to further, and perhaps should just let the misinformation continue. But it is a fact that there
are inholding all over and in various U S National Parks and always have been.

[16parachuteadams]

And the threats do not stop. A Representative from North Carolina recently wanted to reintroduce commercial logging in the Smokies and recruit companies to 'sponsor' the Park in return for getting promotional signage in the Park. Also demanded that the highway across the Park to Cherokee be kept open regardless of weather so that the casinos would not lose revenue. Lots of stress on our Parks.

[snorider]

There are @2.7 million private acres within the national park system of the US. In Grand Teton there are 100 inholdings comprising 950acres, but most of that is accounted for by two ranches 450acres and 120acres. The rest are residential lots. This was not the issue presented by the OP, rather it was an issue of exclusive use of PUBLIC lands. Private inholdings are just a relic, in most cases, of homesteading and farming/ranching prior to the establishment of the parks. PT48 is currently working to fix the situation in the first post, And a Hardy WELL DONE to you sir (miss spelling intentional)

[PT48]

Thank you guys. Yellowstone Autumn by WD Wetherell has some good things to say about national parks especially on page 151 where he describes YNP as a place to escape being "assaulted by the drivel of our times" and, furthermore, where to avoid "being pelted by a particularly odious kind of sleet." Wetherell also reminds us that the Washburn Expedition contained some dodgy customers and yet they were adamant that the place needed to be preserved for the benefit of all Americans. Also, that it was made a national park by US Grant, a somewhat underwhelming President, who rose to the occasion in bringing about what is arguably his finest achievement.

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, A friend sent this:

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=r ... rojector=1

If 'the parks' are our 'best idea, then the 'our' is what makes it happen. Misuse by no matter whom needs to be held in check, by all of us.

USA, USA, USA, USA!

Jay Edwards

[PYochim]

Before I moved west I thought that once I did, I would be spending more time in YNP and GTNP. Now that I'm a 4 hour drive from the east entrance of YNP, I have seen all that I want to see. Crowds, tour buses (not so bad this year), people testing their luck by getting close to large dangerous animals, I've seen enough. I was there a month ago and the traffic rivaled that in mid-town Manhattan. No mas.

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, Here's an interview with an author who has written about a closely related subject, at least in the west.

https://www.wyomingpublicmedia.org/post ... rican-west

Here's the book:

https://www.wyomingpublicmedia.org/post ... althy-west

Jay Edwards

[PT48]

Yes PYochim - and therein lies the rub.