Hardy Perfect lightweight series

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flyuvo
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Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#1

Post by flyuvo »

Check out this bunch:

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I’ve developed an interest in this series ever since I was introduced to one of these little beauties. I haven’t found a lot of information about them, almost none. Some sellers are referring to them as the lightweight perfects and they are lighter than their brothers, indeed. Several indications point to a period of production between WWII and 1950: straight line logo but still leaded, One of the reel makers is Thomas Wilkinson (T.W. 1934 – 1950), there is no mentioning in any Hardy catalogues which were not issued until 1951).
A closer look at the innards of these reels reveals their peculiarity: They are made from a non-standard lighter alloy and have a different lead finish than usual and also – instead of brass - alloy spindle, cog , cog pins, ball bearing housing, spring adjusting bar and central bush. Whether this was due to a lack of brass after the war or to intension to make them lighter, I don’t know. But there must have been a parallel production with brass parts since I’ve seen a couple of them.


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It must have been an intentional series. They all have serial numbers on all the three reel parts and they are in the same spot. Likewise there is a letter right next to the handle’s rivet on the inside of the winding plate.
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Besides the ones I own I have come across others in the internet, all together about twenty reels, mainly in the small sizes 3 1/8 up (no 2 7/8 found so far, but there's one on the big site right now, but with brass parts), only one 3 7/8 and one 3 ¾ (see pic). None of them had a number higher than 141, so I assume that the series would have around 150 – 200 reels each size.
There are reels with line guards but mostly without. The line guards are mostly in poor shape as you can see on the pics. I haven’t seen identical serial numbers so far and guess that the ones with line guard were in the same series.
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Remember the discussion about the “Z” reels? The letters on the winding plates are most probably maker’s initials since there are T.W. (Thomas Wilkinson), J.R.J (Jack Jackson), J.S. (Jimmy Smith) and R.R. (Robert Richardson). Most of them show a Z and that makes me assume that Z was a maker of Hardy’s, too, but unknown with full name.
I’d like to keep my research up and therefore I would like to ask all of you who own one of these reels to show pics with the identifications. Maybe we get more clues about this misterious series. So please if you have one show it!
Thx all
Urs

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#2

Post by Booman2 »

Mine is a 3 7/8" with perfect metal line guide and the initials T.A. (Thomas Appleby?) and the number 106 stamped on both side plate and on the plate next to the bearings. It has 2 circles inscribed on the winding plate but no pin like your first photo to the top right. I wonder what the number 106 means, and cannot recall seeing it in any of the common references. Given the aluminum parts, I assume it's post war production when materials were scarce.

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#3

Post by sovereign »

Hardy reel maker TA = Thomas Appleby left hardys 1947 so I think you are right about a war-time reel. The 106 stamped on the reel-parts was a number used so that the reel-maker could get the right parts together to a perfect fitting fly reel. For us now it tells us that the reel has all its original parts, if different numbers on the different reel-parts it tells us that the reel is,nt the correct fly reel from the factory but a later mix done with different Hardy Perfect reels, sadly they do exist. // Steen

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#4

Post by flyuvo »

Booman2, please be so kind and show us pictures. If there‘s no number on the spool it could be an optional thing or a replacemenent. I have one of them as well and it has a spool with a solid face and it was most likely done by Hardy. The number is iho a serial number and it‘s on all parts to know that the parts belong together, as Sovereign stated.
Urs

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#5

Post by oddsnrods »

I am not sure that the reels in question would have been a dedicated Lightweight series of Perfects. My guess is that there may well have been brass shortages in the firm at the time, but who knows.

It appears that the reels featured in the first post have brass feet, which preclude any effort to save weight. Certainly at the time many other models of Hardy reels had alloy feet - Jock Scott, Silex etc. so if they wanted to save weight..these could well have been Dural (Duralumin) which is very strong and lighter than brass.

WW2 ended in 1945 and there were shortages after, but to what extent I do not know; certainly food rationing I think lasted until 1953.

I did not know until reading this thread that I had one of the reels in question. A contracted 3 5/8" Perfect with leading and straight line logo, unused and in it's box. JLH on the winding plate and 98 stamped on both the spool and by the bearings plus winding plate.

I have another contracted 3 7/8" of the same period also with leading and straight line logo. Again with brass foot and this time with the brass bearing race, with JH inside the winding plate and 56 inside at the same places as the other reels numbers are - on inside of the winding plate at 9 0'clock if the initials are at 12.

The handle 'post' on the smaller one without brass ball race is.. brass. The other larger reels handle post is N/silver, again pointing away from a concerted weight saving effort.

The reels are of the same period, as I have a hand written letter from April 2011 from James Hardy, letting me know that he made the smaller one in 1950, also of how few he actually made. There were no other JH makers, so I conclude that he made both, same model, different sizes.

The keen eyed will also notice that the initial letters of both reels are stamped separately, a little uneven and without dots in between, with the same type characteristics both, appearing to my eye the same letter stamp (I teach design and typography..). James Hardy started with the firm 1949 and worked his way through the various 'shops' in the firm after serving his apprenticeship with Vickers Armstrong on Tyneside; this comes from his description of how he started at Hardy's on The Lost World of Mr Hardy DVD. Established reel maker (finishers) would likely have their own all in one initial stamps, complete with the dots between their initials.

In the letter he wrote to me, JH mentioned that he made a few Altex 2 reels as well as the Perfects.

The interesting part, is that numbers 98 and 56 are numbers sequentially quite far apart. Judging by the quantity of reels in total the 21 year old James Hardy made in the reel shop, I would have said that he may well have spent but a few weeks there at most. He was to move on to the rod and other shops during his early days at the firm.

Having conducted some research and amateur experiments with leading over the years, and inspecting the two reels here I would say they are of the same cast metal and the same leading. Other metals used for some fly reels , Dural and Hiduminium would not have been leaded, in my opinion, but that's another story which I have written of before.
I doubt that the spindle and check wheel are an alloy, probably steel.

Interesting little questions always seem to emerge concerning Hardy reels.

Malcolm



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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#6

Post by flyuvo »

Malcolm, very nice reels and thx to your contribution. One more reel on my list and with another and very prominent maker.

I could agree with the doubt that these reels were made on intention to make them lighter looking at the brass foot. But looking at that foot raises the question, if there was a shortage why was that part made of brass? I keep calling them "lightweights" because I have no other name for them. I'm sure it was a series and to identify them "HP lightweight" is good enough :) And I agree that there must have been identical reels of the same time with brass parts as your 3 7/8 whether they were part of the same series we will only know when we find two reels with the same number …. So I shall include these reels with brass parts into my little research.

We're still not sure what Bamboo2's reel is all about. Let's see it, Bamboo2 :) Here's the one with solid spool I mentioned. There's no number on the spool but it definitely looks like Hardy made and it works perfekt with no wobble or any other concern:
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And here's one with the same looks and the Z stamp, but serial number only in cage and with brass parts. It's a nice 3 1/2" reel:
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I'm happy with any other help and contribution to that topic.
Urs

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#7

Post by flyuvo »

Well, that‘s what I call a low response. Is it lack of interest in this series? Are there no more around and do I have to consider these reels as extremely rare? Am I in the wrong forum with this?
So please check your great collections and let me know about more existing „lightweight“ HPs. Thx
Urs

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#8

Post by ibookje »

Not a lot that can afford these vintage reels I guess

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#9

Post by Piglegs »

Hi Flyuvo
I think you are reading too much into this. After WW2 there will have been a shortage in materials and parts and Hardy’s would have used old stock parts and whatever new materials were available. I have the 1948,
51 52 and 53 export catalogues and no mention of the special lightweight series in any of them. My guess is dealers invented the ‘ightweight perfect’ idea to sell more reels just as Jamie Maxtone Graham coined the ‘spitfire’ phrase rather than ‘left in the white’ simply to move more of his deliberately polished stock which buyers perceived to be more attractive than the war time painted reels. I was also under the impression that the single letter refs e.g the z ref you refer to is simply a parts ref so the maker could assemble the reel with matching parts on his bench.
Post war perfects are also quite modestly priced so I don’t think the lack of replies has anything to do with this it is simply because in my view there is no lightweight series.
Stay safe everyone and apologies if I sound a party pooper.

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#10

Post by cdmoore »

Not to rain on the parade flyuvo, but...

1.) No such series. Never mentioned by Drewett. Never mentioned by Ted Evans in his excellent films. Never mentioned in any of the other books I've read on the subject. Besides, brass foot weighs almost a full ounce more than aluminum (I have weighed them). Tough aluminum alloys were available when these reels were made. I don't think a brass foot could seriously be a design element by a firm such as Hardy in an effort to make a lightweight Perfect--not given the success they had with the actual Hardy Lightweight or the LRH Lightweight. Indeed, the history of the Perfect doesn't seem to accord with the idea of light weight...period. That's why they made the St. George and other models which weighed several ounces less.

2.) Not that uncommon. Do a google image search. I don't have one because I am not a fan of the chromed steel lineguard, often mistaken for NS, which tend to chip and rust.

3.) The unperforated spool is quite unusual, supplied on special request. But also not a weight saver. Still, a nice find.

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#11

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler »

Adam's Angling points out that the bearing race uses different size and quantity of bearings as well. I suspect that Hardy had a reason for making these other than material shortages. Light is good, too light is not as the rod will become (potentially very) tip heavy

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#12

Post by flyuvo »

Hi all, I've been waiting for a while now but had only one more reel pointed out by a collector. It's no 9 and with a red line guard... probably mounted on request by the seller:
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I've tracked close to thirty reels of that series (what ever we might call them) by now. I agree the series is nowhere mentioned, it seems to consist of various sizes (no identical numbers so far regardless of the sizees) but nevertheless does have some unique features as mentioned above. But there's more to find out: All the reels with the "Z" stamp have an alloy spindle core with a steel sleeve whereas all the reels that have the stamp of known reel makers (e.g. T.W, J.R.J) have full alloy spindles. Accordingly the winding plates are built differently:
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Full alumin spindle by J.R.J.

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Alumin core with steel sleeve spindle by "Z"

I rest my case here and leave comments and thoughts up to you. If anybody finds another one of that species in his collection, let me know and send pics.
Cheers Urs

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#13

Post by Brian K. Shaffer »

Spectacular Urs - just lovely... what a group you have.

I have a Z stamped reel but it aint like yours...
" There's no such thing as a fly fisherman wholly satisfied with his casting performance. " ~ Jim Green (1971)
" Just once I wish a trout would wink at me. " ~ Brian Shaffer

Use the SEARCH for justification and reasoning.

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#14

Post by flyuvo »

Thx Brian for your Feedbacks. By now I have spotted 36 reels of this lot (I leave the „lightweight“) with aluminium parts and 10 with brass parts. No identical numbers within the aluminium parts ones but in between them. This let’s me to the conclusion that the first we’re a series or batch of its own for whatever reason it was produced. Highest number so far: 143. 12 reels stamped with „Z“, 7 reels with „T.W.“, 3 reels with „J.R.J.“, 2 reels with „T.A.“, 2 reels with „R“; 2 reels with „H“ and one each with „R.R.“ and „J.S.“ and „JLH“. On the pics of 5 reels I couldn‘t detect a maker‘s stamp because there was none of the inside of the winding plate.
Again, if anybody has another one to contribute, I‘ll be thankful.
Brian, show your Z reel, I bet it was made in the years before and after WWII
Stay safe
Urs

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#15

Post by 60InchDV8 »

The Hardy Perfect models have gradually evolved to be a lighter weight reel. The original Brass Perfects were replaced by aluminum alloy models for their lighter weight advantages.
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These early alloy lighter weight Perfects featured a one piece reel frame and foot. Brass reel feet were found to be more durable and were riveted or screwed onto the alloy frame.

The Bougle model was the result of a special order request for a compact raised pillar and lighter weight Perfect design.
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The Lightweight Bougle models were a continuation of Hardy’s response to customer demand for the “Perfect” reel to pair with lighter weight rods.
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I’m not aware of particular Perfect designated as a Lightweight model but Hardy continued to recognize this was important to discerning anglers.and responded with improved aluminum alloys that were lighter and stronger. The continuing popularity with modern anglers for the classic 1930 era prewar Perfects are an example, like these Jimmy Smith Salmon Perfects pictured here.
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There are rare examples of bespoke Trout and Salmon Perfect models were ordered with design modifications to make them lighter. Some of these Perfects featured additional porting on the spool to reduce weight and provide better ventilation for a silk line. Here is a special ordered 1905 check 4 inch “ Rings Up” LHW Reverse Salmon Perfect that my Great Grandfather commissioned from Hardy. The reel smith RB, crafted this lighter weight reel to suit Gr. Gramps who was injured in the Boer War. The spool has the additional porting on the exterior as well as additional porting and milling on the interior frame.
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I continue the family tradition and enjoy spey fishing on the Restigouche with this memorial Perfect.
Regards from Canada....Jim

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#16

Post by oddsnrods »

If you read the original post Jim, you will see the question relates to some Perfects having alloy parts rather than brass of the same production period.. I happen to have two Contracted Perfects made by James Hardy, one with brass parts, the second alloy. Both confirmed in a letter to me, that he made the two reels in 1950. See post #5.

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#17

Post by 60InchDV8 »

Well Malcolm, I mentioned that as a collector, I’ve never heard of a LIghtweight model Perfect, but the best example of Hardy using aluminum alloy to replace brass for a “Lightweight” Perfect, was the 1900 era models. These new Perfects, except for the Brass Faced models, featured an alloy face plate, and spool, along with a one piece frame and foot. These trout and salmon Perfects replaced the original all brass Perfects and later the BF models. However their alloy reel feet were found to be brittle and susceptible to breaking. Hardy replaced them with brass feet but continued using and improving their aluminum alloy, to make lighter weight reels and their components, as with your lovely Perfect.
Regards...Jim

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#18

Post by flyuvo »

Hi all, when such a reel was first showed to me I was interested because it seemed to be rare. For some reason, may it have been shortage of brass or weight issues, all the brass pieces were substituted by alloy or even aluminium. It was introduced to me as a “lightweight Perfect” and there are two well known sellers on the big auction site who use the term. I realised with time that there are a few of them with the same characteristics all built shortly after WWII. I began to think that they must be part of a series that have never been mentioned anywhere and the making has never been followed. The other thing that has been revealed to me is the mystery of that “Z” stamp. All this reels I’ve seen so far have letters stamped on the back side of the winding plates and all are well known as Hardy reel makers except that “Z”. It can be found on other Perfects of the time and in the meantime I’m convinced it was a reel maker at Hardy’s, too. I don’t insist on that name, to me the rarity of making is of interest.
A few weeks ago I came across this odd ball showing only the front and none of the innards. One could clearly see that the pins the check wheel is attached with are not brass as they usually. When I bought it I expected to find all the other parts being aluminium but had to realise that they’re not. Since the nickel silver line guard was in very bad state I had it sent to John Mackenzie who put an agate line guard on it and released it. So that’s how they might have looked originally. The original leading wouldn’t stick to that new Hardy alloy and I guess that’s why most of these reels of the time before the enamel baking are a kind of blank today.

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Thanks for your interest
Urs

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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#19

Post by oddsnrods »

A couple of points.

I think that my pair of contracted Perfects, featured in post #5, two of only three (in total) made by James Hardy during 1950 when he was gaining experience in the various 'shops' while starting at the firm (as he personally wrote to me describing) - learning the ropes so to speak- are evidence that the so- called 'Lightweight Perfect' range of reels is a figment of furtive and opportunistic imaginations.

Dealer Jamie Maxine James did similar when contriving the term 'Spitfire' for his stripped and polished Hardy reels- to 'dupe' buyers into thinking they had something special.

It has been said here that Perfects with alloy parts instead of brass all had the mysterious 'Z' stamped on them- well, mine doesn't.

My reels were both made within a very short time of each other, possibly only a day or so. If the object was to save weight one would have had an alloy foot, or sole as Hardy's called it, both mine have brass feet. That alloys would have been 'brittle' when used for feet may have been true early on, but by the 50's, when both my reels were made, use of robust Duralumin and Hiduminium were commonplace, for various reel parts, including feet.

The previous post to this mentions:

'The original leading wouldn’t stick to that new Hardy alloy and I guess that’s why most of these reels of the time before the enamel baking are a kind of blank today.'

There was no "new Hardy alloy". Again, look closely at my pair of Perfects. The leaded finish on the 3 5/8" is 98% intact, complete with lacquer. The reel is mint/ boxed/ unused. the finish sticks just fine.

The 3 7/8" Perfect has a worn exterior but the innards are still leaded and pristine.

The 'finishers' used what was available from the stores to make the reels, there is not much more to it than that.

Malcolm


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Re: Hardy Perfect lightweight series

#20

Post by flyuvo »

oddsnrods wrote:
03/22/23 18:49

It has been said here that Perfects with alloy parts instead of brass all had the mysterious 'Z' stamped on them- well, mine doesn't.

Wrong! In my first post I wrote:
“the letters on the winding plates are most probably maker’s initials since there are T.W. (Thomas Wilkinson), J.R.J.(Jack Jackson”, J.S. (Jimmy Smith) and R.R. (Robert Richardson). Most of them show a Z and that makes me assume that Z was a maker of Hardy’s, too, but unknown with full name.”

Your wonderful reel adds James Hardy to that list of makers. In fact of the 42 reels with these aluminium parts that I own or found on the internet 24 have known maker’s initials (as mentioned in my Post) and two with “R”, three reels I couldn’t see the identifications on the pics and the rest with “Z”. You people can make out of this what you want, my guess is that “Z” was a Hardy reel maker of the time just as well as “R”.

Malcolm, you probably know more about reels than I will ever do and I respect that knowledge deeply. How do you explain that there are these reels all with numbers between 1 and 150 and none of them doubles? I’m not proving here anything I’m m just stating a fact (these reels exist) It is not my interpretation that Hardy’s s wanted to save weight by making these series, I rather think that it was an attempt to try something different out of whatever reason.

Concerning the leading: of course the leading of an unused reel stays on, but it seems that the use of the reel made it disappear on the winding plate as can been seen on most of the reels I’ve spotted so far. They are almost blank. I don’t know much about metals but been told that the winding plate of these reels (May they have brass or aluminium parts) is a different one that before WWII. Again, Malcolm, if you know better, I believe you.

I keep having my eyes open and in fact there is a new one on the big auction site offered by one of these expensive Japanese sellers: no 23 made by Thomas Wilkinson. If you want to be helpful, check your reels for them 😊

Thx for the discussion
Urs

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