Hardy Perfect check evolution

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cdmoore
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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#21

Post by cdmoore »

Banjo, do tell!

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dder
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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#22

Post by dder »

This has turned into a great post Johan,and Banjo that reel you put up is something I would never see if not for this site . Thanks to all and is there any chance this post could be pinned to top as a great resource for dating early perfects. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. Daryl

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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#23

Post by J Gustavsson »

Banjo, now you must show us what you've got up your sleeve! :wave
Regarding having this post pinned: maybe if we edit it a bit it will fit to be pinned.

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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#24

Post by J Gustavsson »

Yesterday I could not see the reel you posted Banjo! Now I can!!
Very interesting reel. Looks like someone came up with a way of making RHW reels into a LHW...

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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#25

Post by J Gustavsson »

MFRS wrote:The picture above indicates the check that came out in 1919. The tension block with the flange to hold the spring in place and the mushroom stanchion were the changes made in 1919 from the original 1917 check.
Ok, so what would the 1917 check look like?
I have tried to find a true 1917 check but I find it very often to be mixed up with the mark 1 check.
I have a st George reel that is said to have a 1917 check. The only difference from the picture I posted before is that the stanchion, holding the pawl, is made of steel..

Is this a 1917 check?

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fishnbanjo
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Re: Hardy Perfect check evol

#26

Post by fishnbanjo »

I have owned several Mk I or 1917 check reels including a Eunich, what you have pictured is how each has been. The Mk II appeared in 1921 iirc but did not show up until the 1922 catalog. I also have a photo of the evolution of the pawls from hand made (first two from left) to the Mk I/II checks (last one to the right. The original Mk II check was with one engaging pawl like the Mk I and the second pawl and spring as a spare, not positive when the second spring and pawl began being left unengaged or engaged but it certainly made a difference in the drag.
banjo

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I have pinned the topic.


J Gustavsson wrote:
MFRS wrote:The picture above indicates the check that came out in 1919. The tension block with the flange to hold the spring in place and the mushroom stanchion were the changes made in 1919 from the original 1917 check.
Ok, so what would the 1917 check look like?
I have tried to find a true 1917 check but I find it very often to be mixed up with the mark 1 check.
I have a st George reel that is said to have a 1917 check. The only difference from the picture I posted before is that the stanchion, holding the pawl, is made of steel..

Is this a 1917 check?

Image

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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#27

Post by J Gustavsson »

I just wanted to add some information about the check wheels in these reels. There are almost never anything written about these... but I think it might be worth mentioning that they have also been changed over time...
In the early reels they where quite big and had different teeth than the later cog wheels that where used.
Of course the size of the wheel and the number of teeth makes the reels sound and feel a bit different..
Here are a few examples starting with a brass face contracted 3 3/8" check wheel (1896 check). The teeth are a bit worn but they used to be more pointy...
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next is the wheel in an early 1905 check reel with the small centerstamp on the faceplate. As you can see the teeth are still pointy.ImageImage
Next is a 1910 ish reel with the big centerstamp Here is a different wheel now the teth are more modern looking the teth are more rounded off...
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These wheels are used ever since but they varied in size. In the smaller 1912 perfects (2 7/8" and 3 1/8") the wheel was changed to a much smaller version during the end of that period. Here´s a late 1912 check 3 1/8" perfect wheel.
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Last pic is a side by side comparison by the two different shape of te teeth..
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restoration
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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#28

Post by restoration »

Johan, I thought I would include the check system on a Hardy reel I once owned to support your findings. Your attention to detail has to be applauded and I have learnt a lot from your postings and from the postings from fellow forum members. Keep up the good work young man and thank you for this thread.

This is a narrow drum 4 inch diameter reel.

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dder
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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#29

Post by dder »

I know I already said this but this has been a very informative post. Plus now the second early Hardy made reel like none I have ever seen or even heard of. That is a very different looking reel John,many details I,ve never seen in another Hardy. Another question that came to me looking at the changes in the check gears is when did they have the machinery to actually cut the gear teeth? That may be a stupid question but I have no metal machining knowledge. The more modern and rounded teeth would require more work to make I would think and wonder if there was an improvement in the machinery to make them. Time is money and I imagine that was something Hardy,s kept an eye on. They certainly changed the work that went into the silex reels around 1912. Thanks for sharing your pictures and knowledge of the details on these reels . Daryl

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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#30

Post by J Gustavsson »

Wow, that 4" reel!!!! John, that is an extraordinary reel! Please tell us more about it!! Never seen anything like it before and we will probably never se another one.. ???
And thanks for your kind words sir, meaning a lot coming from you. ;) :)

regarding when and why the changes too place is a bit hard to tell but somewhere around 1906-1910 Hardy started using the modern wheels I believe.

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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#31

Post by J Gustavsson »

Btw John, I think this 4" narrow drum deserves a post of its own!! ;)

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dder
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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#32

Post by dder »

I too would be very interested to hear any thing more you would share on that narrow Hardy, John. Banjo if you felt like a post on that perfect you showed I think there are a few of us would enjoy hearing more about it as well. They both are pretty rare reel,s to my thinking. Daryl

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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#33

Post by restoration »

I am happy to share my thoughts on this reel and the things I discovered while I was taking a very close look at it. It might be best if I describe the parts and construction in a short list and give an opinion at the end.

The Winding Plate is made from what Hardy’s called their white metal and this is quite tough and can’t be acid etched/bronzed like the usual cast aluminium used on most of their reels. There are turning chatter marks under the plate caused by vibrations when the plate was made which is an indication of how tough this metal is. It has all three logos on it including the very early Rod in Hand logo. The check wheel has been swaged onto the plate using the large flanges on the front and back of the spindle boss and this has been pinned in place as well. It has an ivory handle and this is fixed with a nickel silver wire through a simple bronze cup.

The Spool is made in three parts. The flanges are made from what I believe to be soft aluminium plate and not cast aluminium. When I had the reel the front flange had a big buckle in it and I managed to bend this back into shape by hand. The centre boss is made from bronze and the parts are swaged together and there are two bronze pins going through the front and back of the spool to stop the parts from rotating.

The Frame is made from two main parts, the back plate and the front ring. These have bronze pillars and steel screws holding everything together. The screws have been fixed into the reel from inside the back plate and go through the pillars into the front ring. The bronze foot is fixed to the reel in the same way. The open bearing is very interesting because it is not the usual top hat shaped bush. This one is the same diameter along the bit that goes into the frame and does not have the usual screws to keep the bearing in place. The bush is threaded and screwed into the back plate and then the plate has been peened/punched around the bush to keep it in place. I would say the “C” spring was hand made because it simply looks that way but it works very well.

Three types of alloy have been used to construct the reel and size of the reel is interesting as well; 4 inch diameter by 1 ¼ wide. The construction in my opinion is quite crude and I had a feeling, putting it bluntly, it was cobbled together.

I contacted Hardy’s about the reel and I had a written reply which concluded the reel was probably the very first pre-production prototype all aluminium reel made some time between 1890 – 1900

The reel is with a new owner and I am content it has gone to a very good home.

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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#34

Post by J Gustavsson »

Very interesting! It certainly look like something they put together to try out a new idea or something.. ie a prototype reel! Just wonderful!

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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#35

Post by greenwell »

Very interesting reel,a few years ago whilst visiting a good friend of mine in Alnwick i was shown a reel which was in for repair and looks very much like this reel, it was in pieces the frame pillar's were broken.
When you look at this reel it looks like the bronze as been done in the not to distant past so one can assume that this reel had a all alloy frame originally and this reel was repaired in the same way they did the all brass Perfects and some alloy ones which were sent into the factory in the old days for repair,some were even given a nickel silver rim if the original rim was broken.Most of the very early repaired reels i have seen over many years had nickel silver pillars put in and were not bronzed and they used a old silex type foot to replace the reel back if it was damaged.
Still this is a good honest repair well done and certainly looks better than in bits,well done to that person.
Regarding the marks on the winding plate these are tool chatter marks which were caused whilst skimming a very thin plate in a lathe, you quiet often see it on the old brass face plates and early alloy reels,i might be wrong but do not think when this plate was made that they used different alloys for separate parts on the alloy reels.
Hope this helps shed some light on this well preserved bit of history.
Chris (Greenwell)

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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#36

Post by restoration »

Chris... This is not a complicated reel and it is fair to assume there is only one of these. As for it being repaired in the same way as an original 612 model of perfect and or similar reels, I believe you are wrong. I purchased over 60kgs of vintage Hardy reels and spare parts some time ago and this reel was in one of the many boxes I have in my care. When I discovered the body of the reel it was covered in grease, grime, mud and other debris. I cleaned what I had found and realised it was something special and I set about looking in every box I have to see if I could find all of the parts for the reel. The parts were in different boxes and I found the front flange for the frame, the “C” spring, check block, adjusting screw and over strap. I also found the reel back (foot) which was bent and bruised.

Your point about the reel starting out as having a full alloy frame is interesting but I don’t think this was the case. If this 4 inch reel had been produced from a complete aluminium casting it would have been a wide drum unit. Bearing this in mind I ask how the very narrow spool would be fitted into a wide frame. Granted a full 4 inch frame could have been cut down, pillars removed and the front flange kept to be used during construction but the internal machining on the back plate of this reel does not conform to anything I have ever seen before. Not only that, I also ask you to explain the short length of the spindle on the winding plate which matches the length and depth of the spool? You have questioned the construction of the reel and for your guidance I direct you to Hardy’s “THE FIELD” reel, this might help you to understand the construction of this reel.

I restored this reel to as many known and findable parameters that I could muster. The wear marks all over the parts I had at the time were a good indicator of what went where and of the bits that were missing. These photos further strengthen my theories about the reel. The original screws holding everything together were made of nickel silver and there was evidence there were pillar sleeves over the screws. The little “S” spring over the pawl had no tension on it so I removed the “Aluminium Rivet” that was holding it in place and reset the spring tension and replaced the rivet with a screw. I made and replaced the bronze sleeves to enhance the integrity of the reel and I restored the reel back (foot) to good order.

Needless to say I hate mysteries and I enquired, through Main Hudson, about why the original pillars and bushes were cut through and the reply was the frame was twisted and the pillars were bent and this prevented the spool from being removed from the frame.

Again I confirm there are three types of aluminium that have been used to construct the reel. Hardy’s White metal for the winding plate, Cast aluminium for the body and the front flange of the reel and soft thin Plate aluminium for the spool.

So there you have it… No secrets, no intrigue and no deception.

I think this is a very important piece of Hardy history that deserves open and honest discussion here on our forum.

John Mackenzie


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Last edited by restoration on 03/08/17 15:09, edited 1 time in total.

greenwell
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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#37

Post by greenwell »

Just for the record i did not state that the reel in the pictures was the reel i had viewed,as far as i know that reel is still with its owner in pieces awaiting till he as time to get to it to repair.
Not all 4"salmon frames were wide drums as i have seen at least 3 such narrow drum reels and one as been in the same collection for many years and is well documented,admitted 2 of these are from a later period and they are correct.
At least we now know the reel is not in its original state and as been repaired by yourself for future reference.
I would appreciate it that you remove my name from your post and do not use my full name in your posts as this is against board policy,Greenwell is ok.
This is all i have to say on this mater and as i said before nice repair job well done to that person.
Greenwell.

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Brian K. Shaffer
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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#38

Post by Brian K. Shaffer »

Wow - this thread is luscious.... Never have I seen an early in detail like that. Brian

J Gustavsson
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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#39

Post by J Gustavsson »

Regarding this 4" perfect that John Mackenzie showed: We will probably never be able to tell the full story about it. Unless the workers at Hardy's will wake up from the dead and tell us about it.
We can only speculate.. but to me it's a very plausible theory that this reel is indeed a prototype contracted reel.

Well well. What this reel does show is the little extra spring on top of the pawl. For some reason Hardy abandoned this spring in the later reels..
The pawl in this early type check has an oval hole that makes the pawl "float" so it wont get stuck between two teeth in the check wheel when changing winding direction.
This actually happens quite often with the later non floating pawls. And that was, I believe, one reason that they later developed the 1912 check with the "reinvented" floating pawl...
So this makes this reel not only an interesting piece of its own but also a part of the check evolution.

Greenwell, where in the forum rules is it said that it's against the forum rules to write a persons name? I read the rules and it does say "name calling" is not allowed.. but in my book that is something completely different.. ;)

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Re: Hardy Perfect check evolution

#40

Post by flyuvo »

Interesting thread! Unforunately most of the pics don't show anymore :-( Text without illustrations is only half informative. Any chance to make them show up again? I guess all the authors would have to rearrange their posts.
Thx Urs

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