Dingley? Franken-reel

[WallaceWatson]

Raymond Humble was born in 1922 and was apprenticed at Hardy in 1937. The Hardy factory was in Bondgate until 1965 which is about 120 yards from the Dingley works in Green Batt. Dingley was by then a very highly respected tackle maker and it goes without saying that a reel maker at Hardy would have been very well aware of WH Dingley especially since he was so close by.

I take Stefan's point about the catalogues. Raymond Dingley said none were produced. Stefan has four examples. Maybe Raymond D could have been mistaken about other matters. It just goes to show you can't believe everything you are told.

Regarding "a R. Humble working at Hardys during Dingley's time there" (1891-1911) I can't find any information so would it be possible to provide a source?

Cheers
Mike

[Mole-Patrol]

Hi Mike, The information can be found in the archived The Fishing Gazette found at:
https://archive.org/stream/fishinggazet ... e_djvu.txt

Walking Contest (1903)

In the neighbourhood of Alnwick it would be
difficult to find a better route for a true test of
endurance than that selected by Messrs. Hardy
Brothers' employia for their walk on July 25.
There are both gradual and steep ascents and
descents, broken at intervals by practically, as
well as actually, level stretches. The surface of
the roads, too, is variable — from the rough
by-roads to those roads which are kept in
perfect order by the county council. Here and
there the road is open to the breezes from
land and sea, and in places is tree-lined and beauti-
fully sheltered from the prevailing elements. The
gold medal given by Messrs. Hardy Bros, is a real
beauty, and much interest prevails as to who will
be the winner. The entries close on July 18, and
up to now forty-five have given ia their names.
The contest is strictly confined to Messrs. Hardy's
employis. A list of entries is as foUowd: — Messrs.
J. Stephenson, W. Currie, T. Campbell, D. McMan-
nus, J. Donohue, J. Hogg, J. Black, S. Smith, W.
Lilburn. R. Waite, W. Jobson, A. Wall, A. Duncan,
B. Pitt, C. Hardy. D. Ritchie, R. Bum. P. Hendry,
R. Rodgers, T. Gibson, G. Elliot, J. Campbell, W.
Ferguson, C. S. Bampton, J. Wallace, J. Sharp. J.
Burn, J. Ashburn, L. R. Hardy, J. McCutcheon, W.
Hardy, Jun., T. F. Hedley, W. L. Sergeant, J.
Quarry, G. Weedy, W. Best, R. Waugh, R. Humble,
G. Grey, J. Colbron, J. McMannus, W. H. Dingley,
D. Hendry, T. Gillan, R. Borthwick.— W. L. S.

The walking group list confirms that C S Bampton was indeed an employee at Hardys.


This one is from 1909 and concerns a work's outing:
https://archive.org/stream/fishinggazet ... e_djvu.txt
i

LONDON AND NORTH BRITISH
WORKS' ANNUAL TRIP.

The annual trip of the employe's of Messrs.
Hardy Bros., Ltd., was held on Saturday last
(July 3), to Scarborough, the N.E.R. Co. providing
special facilities for the party. It was rather a dull
morning when the party, numbering over a hundred,
left Alnwick Station at twenty minutes past five.
About eighteen miles north of York we were
stranded for an hour and three-quarters. The
engine had broken down, and we were stuck on the
cross roads imable to move until some part of the
engine could be removed. An engine was tele-
graphed for from Thirsk, and soon arrived, but had
to wait on until the defective part was taken out.
However, we ultimately arrived at Scarborough at
twelve o'clock, just an hour and three-quarters
late. After a stroll roimd we made our way to the
Albemarle Hotel, where an excellent and substantial
repast was awaiting us. The chairman (Mr. A.
McCutcheon) made a few remarks, and then asked
Mr. Wm. Jobson to propose the toast of " Hardy
Brothers, Ltd.," which he did in a neat little speech.
At the same time he referred in complimentary terms
to the success of two of the employe's in the casting
competitions at Kelso the previous week. Mr. A.
Broadley seconded the vote, which was carried with
acclamation. Mr. R. Humble then proposed
" The Committee," and Mr. W. H. Dingley replied.
We then made a move outside to view the many
and attractive places of interest, and the time seemed
all too short before we got a look at the Aquarium,
Museum, Spa, Castle, North and South Bays, with
the torpedo-boat and two submarines lying defend-
ing Scarborough. Our train left Scarborough at
6.15, and we arrived at Alnwick just five minutes
before midnight — only half-an-hour late. Every-
one was delighted with the day's outing. The
committee who were responsible for the arrange-
ments were Messrs. J. I?. Robson. A. Broadley,
A. McCutcheon, T. Campbell, T. Gillan, W. Jobson,
and W. H. Dingley, hon. sec. X.

I find these things fascinating.

[stefan duma]

The problem is that the Fishing Gazette ran for about 100 years and that source you quote has a very small period.

What is needed are the actual volumes.





I have about sixty volumes many are missing the front and back cover where lots of information is held

[stefan duma]

[stefan duma]

[oddsnrods]

Raymond Humble was born in 1922…William Dingley appears to have left Hardy's around 1911..at which time Mr Humble (presumably) would have been an 11 year old boy running around the playground at (for all I know) Alnwick Junior School.

Mr Mole, I would read carefully of which Stefan Duma writes..

malcolm

[stefan duma]

Raymond Humble was born in 1922 and was apprenticed at Hardy in 1937. The Hardy factory was in Bondgate until 1965 which is about 120 yards from the Dingley works in Green Batt. Dingley was by then a very highly respected tackle maker and it goes without saying that a reel maker at Hardy would have been very well aware of WH Dingley especially since he was so close by.

I take Stefan's point about the catalogues. Raymond Dingley said none were produced. Stefan has four examples. Maybe Raymond D could have been mistaken about other matters. It just goes to show you can't believe everything you are told.

Regarding "a R. Humble working at Hardys during Dingley's time there" (1891-1911) I can't find any information so would it be possible to provide a source?

Cheers
Mike

Its a common theme amongst families they are usually not aware of how much their forefathers have contributed not only in tackle innovation but in many other fields.
Many have no pictures or very few pictures, one family did not know their grandad even made reels never mind his invention of the spring release latch.

Regarding the catalogues I have copies, the owner did not want them released, possibly as he is working on various projects of his own.

[Mole-Patrol]

The problem is that the Fishing Gazette ran for about 100 years and that source you quote has a very small period.

What is needed are the actual volumes.





I have about sixty volumes many are missing the front and back cover where lots of information is held

Many of these volumes have been digitally archived and are available online. The links I posted take you to a batch of 6 months. Once the web page is loaded you can used the 'Find' facility ('Control + F' for those that aren't aware) to find keywords. It is possible to flick through the findings to examine whether they are relative to the enquiry. For example if you put "Dingley" into the search field it would include references to "Dingley Dell" and "Headingley". Once you have found what you are actually looking for by scrolling upwards and downwards from there carefully you then come to the date of the publication.

If you have the original copies that should make it easier to find what you are looking for. The Walking contest where W H Dingley and R Humble participated was in the issue dated July 3rd 1903.

[Mole-Patrol]

Raymond Humble was born in 1922…William Dingley appears to have left Hardy's around 1911..at which time Mr Humble (presumably) would have been an 11 year old boy running around the playground at (for all I know) Alnwick Junior School.

Mr Mole, I would read carefully of which Stefan Duma writes..

malcolm

I had made that point already in my post timed 16:46. Hence the comment about the catalogues being the key. Do try to keep up.

[WallaceWatson]

Fascinating stuff regarding the Fishing Gazette. Thanks for sharing the source with us all. Could keep busy for months going through the archives during the coronavirus lock down!
I see that Mr. Jobson was also an employee at Hardy. Jobson's was a saddle shop in Alnwick and at one time made the Hardy block leather cases. They are still there but specialise in country clothing now.
Does anyone know anything about Mr R. Bum who is also in the list of employees?

[Mole-Patrol]

It isn't an easy read given the errors in the scan to text program, and the format of the layout. But, if you have good keywords to search on and plenty of time then there are some gems in there for researchers and those with a general interest in fishing in all its forms.

It is a portal to a different world when burbot were sold and caught and gentlemen spent the game fish close season casting little bags of lead shot as far as they could with three casts in five minutes. The adverts too can provide loads of useful, and it must be said; useless information.

Regards Mr R Bum, it could be Burn or similar. The scan to text isn't totally accurate.

[stefan duma]

The problem with looking for Dingley in the Fishing Gazette is that he was banned from advertising.

If you look at how much advertising Hardy did you can see why he was banned.

this applied to all the Alnwick tackle makers, Nettleship took a legal action when they were barred from exhibiting in London at the Aquarium Exhibition.

Hardy's advertising was huge and the FG were only too keen to keep Hardy.

However Dingley was not a keen advertiser anyway as I have not seen that many adverts in the Angler another weekly paper that is full of information but not online.

[WallaceWatson]

According to the Surname Database the family name Bum originated in England in the 13th century. They were sellers of spices or perfumes and ointments.
I'm glad my origins were Irish.

[Mole-Patrol]

It could have been worse. His family name could have been that of a fish associated with Dover

Ralph Burn, b. circa 1880 is your man. Fishing tackle maker at a Fishing & Tackle Company.

You can't trust the OCR of the text.

Regards Stefan's post; the editor Marston co-founded the casting club that the Hardys were prominent members of. Might have been a touch of nepotism as well as financial reasons.

[stefan duma]

Hardy's were not members of the Flyfishers club, something I have just found out in The Flyfishers which I am currently reading.

No trade people were allowed as they might promote their products.

With us on 12 weeks isolation we are working our way through the FG's and lots of books I have bought but never read.

3 volume Blacker next.

[Mole-Patrol]

I would think that the Fly-Fishers Club at that time would be harder to get into than The Ivy. It seems very stuffy from the bits I have read. There were some fascinating characters though.

This site has 20 million books including old angling titles available for free download on a variety of platforms:
https://archive.org/details/texts

[Mole-Patrol]

I am still waiting for the Franken-Reel to arrive. While browsing today I came across this reel on sale. It is stamped J Bernard & Son and bears an uncanny resemblance to my purchase. There are a few slight details that are different; 14 spokes instead of 12, three-quarter cast line guard, not a half circle screw on guard and there is a casting brake trigger on the J Bernard reel that isn't on mine. Also, the spool boss on the J Bernard reel is what you would expect from a Dingley and indeed it bears the man's mark.





There is enough similarity in the two reels to suggest the same hand made them. I still think that my Franken-Reel could be a factory test bed. Alloy was prety expensive back then and they wouldn't want to waste a casting each time a new idea was tried.

If mine looks half as good as that one inside I will be a happy man.

[Mole-Patrol]

How does the song go; "There are more questions than answers...." Lifting the cover of the Franken-Reel has certainly provided some surprises.

For a start, the half-coin check release isn't there. In its place is a similar shaped brass piece that is used to mount a line guard. The slot is there, but not the release. What is more puzzling is that the spring arrangement suggests that it should be there. Similarly, there are parts to suggest that a casting trigger was intended to be fitted, but the obvious place for the slot is not cut out. The adjuster screw goes nowhere. It should regulate a trigger that has never been fitted.

There is a check on /off button that is made up of a button and screw that are in keeping with the period and maker, but the screw is slightly too long and not finished off. The hole is rectangular and looks like it was done at the factory, but it is in such a place that it obscures the makers name. The ends of the caliper spring are finished off beautifully so sit snugly against the pawl, but the pawl itself has not been polished an finished as you would expect it to be if the reel was destined for a customer.

This reel reminds me of the explanation of the mystery reel in the DifD book. There are parts that are well made and others that are roughly crafted. There are screws that have not been touched for 100 years and others that have obviously been taken out and replaced several times.

So, the vital statistics of the reel are; diameter 3.5" and width 1.5". Maker J.J. S. Walker & Co Alnwick and as it stands it is a useable fly-reel. It was bought from an auction in Alnwick itself.

Because it is pre-Bampton and the general condition and design of the casting I am guessing this will be one of the first reels produced by the J. J. S. Walker factory. JJS was a rod maker and Dingley did not join him until late 1911 at the earliest so I am guessing that this will have been made around 1912 and is either a test bed reel or possibly a reject used to make a fishable reel or to experiment on. But, what do you think?

[dder]

Glad you got reel safe Clive and I,ll say what think about it. Nice that its a 3 1/2 which is not a very common size. While it may have been something the factory was trying different ideas on I think it was something that someone got it damaged and remade it into a useable reel. The spring layout is the same as the Hardy silexes Dingley made at Hardys and also the same as the J Bernard reel you posted in #37 of this thread. What appears to be different is the bridge over the pawl has been removed along with the spring and linkage from the coin edge piece.The screws are still there from both . A new pawl was made and a sliding button was used to engage and dis engage it.I don,t think the factory would have machined a slot for it to slide on and then stamped the company name over the slot and behind the button. The casting brake lever has been remove but again the pivot screw it used is still in place. The line guide was added using the coin edge piece as a mounting location. The 1/2 frame edge that is screwed onto frame still has 2 of the 3 pillars that would have mounted the cast piece it is replacing and while I can,t tell from picture is there any sign of the center one left or file marks where it would have been?Having said all that I,ll add that this is only an opinion from looking at the pictures and may be totally wrong. I just question why Dingley would take his first design which was quite refined and then change it to this arrangement ,is there any advantage over what the springs indicate the original was made as.Interested in what others think or see and even if it was rebuilt by someone other than the factory its still an interesting job . Daryl

[Mole-Patrol]

Thank you for that detailed insight Daryl.

I agree with your comments about the reel possibly having been damaged in the course of production and so it has been adapted to make the best of a bad job. The screw-on line guard may be the clue as I have never seen this feature on any other Dingley reel. The profile of the line guard is true to type but there is no frame behind it and those pillars look like they are made from alloy tube. Without the line guard half the spool would be exposed and I think that was either as a result of damage or lack of confidence in the reel's construction.



The slot where the casting trigger should go looks like it has been filled to make it less obvious. But the pivot, adjuster and spring suggest that this reel would have been very similar to the J. Bernard reel.



When the reel arrived the check was misaligned. The spring ends had come out of the pawl and the button wasn't sitting correctly in the groove. When I sorted that out I noticed that the screw used to secure the button protruded and was roughly cut.



The maker's name must have been put on before the decision was made to convert the pawl to a sliding button check release. From the spacing of the letters it is a JJS Walker & Co not a JJS Walker Bampton & Co. That, the spindle, the spring arrangement and the foot all suggest the hand of W. H. Dingley. Realistically, it cannot have been made by anyone else.





Also, the spool was difficult to replace because the brake shoe was sitting too far in to allow the drum to clear it. By screwing the adjuster in to its full amount if travel the spool just clicked into place but there was a noticeable drag. I made a slight temporary adjustment to release the brake fully and now it spins forever as smooth as silk.



The reel shows signs of use cosmetically and also came with a dressed fly-line and backing that was sadly too far gone to save. It appears to have been used for fly fishing and as I have a nice cane Forrest & Son, Kelso fly-rod it will see even more service.