Manufacturing prejudice?

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carl otto
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Manufacturing prejudice?

#1

Post by carl otto »

I have seen noted several times about Hardy reels made in England and Hardy reels made in Korea. Hardy has been making reels for well over a hundred years and I would think most people feel they have done a great job making a consistently high quality product. So in order to lower production costs to make their product available to a broader market they move a CNC machine from England to Korea, set up shop with the same quality standards set as in England, but with a less expensive cost per hour labor pool of equally quality minded Koreans. The CNC machine does not care what country it is in, it only speaks engineering (numeric), so with the same materials going in the tolerances and product pieces and parts should be the same. If the reputable folks at Hardy are overseeing production and doing the final QC why the perceived prejudice.

I have in front of me a Bougle Mark VII, made in Korea and one of the Bougle reels out of England. They are essentially identical in look and feel, both wonderfully wrought Hardy's. The Hardy folks I have spoken to also scratch their heads when asked this same question. Folks are willing to pay more money for the same product based on place of origin. Putting the weird collecting market aside. What is wrong with the same quality at a better price in todays world market?

Carl

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mer
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#2

Post by mer »

carl otto wrote:What is wrong with the same quality at a better price in todays world market?
To me nothing wrong. But I am a user, not a collector of fly fishing "stuff" (as in I have never bought nor will buy anything with an eye towards it's worth in the future). "Perceived quality difference" maybe most of the English ones have been broken in and the newer ones have not? I know I've had to smooth out some pawls brand new reels to get them to feel smoother, but a used reel that's already happened.

To a collector? That is a different story. Anyone collecting anything has a goal: "buy a Corvette made on my birthday, a Corvette in every color of the year 1963". M1 Garand or 1911 collectors: WW2, rollmarks, etc.

I honestly believe that the answer to your question starts with a question:
For use or for collecting?

bluesjay
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#3

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys, There's a little bit of this:

https://www.starbucks.com/

Or this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=night+h ... e&ie=UTF-8

Or course one is closed for now.......

Jay Edwards

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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#4

Post by PAGene »

It was state “The CNC machine does not care what country it is in” it might not matter to the CNC machine but to the people in England who lost their jobs, when they moved manufacturing to Korea, I’m sure it matters. I don’t know where in England Hardy’s were manufactured before their move, but I’m betting that they’re a lot of people there who will never again buy a Hardy reel.

Another thing that gets to me. Companies move manufactured to 3rd world countries and still charge the same or higher price like it is made in England or the USA. So, we lose twice, we pay more for things, and not always the same quality, made in a 3rd world country and people in either England or USA lose jobs.

That aside if no one in England or USA could afford a Hardy’s reel was the reason they moved manufacturing, then how many will they sell if no one has a job so they can afford to pay the same or higher price for a Hardy reel just because it is a “Hardy Reel”.
Gene

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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#5

Post by Arubey »

As I contemplate your question, Carl, I'm looking at an older 2 screw line guard LRH and a newer Korean manufactured LRH. Different reels for sure, but both are extremely nicely made. The tolerances on the newer reel are every bit as close and perhaps tighter than the "classic" reel. The anodized finish is likely more durable. The original spool on the new one is ported on the back whereas the originals are not - I have no preference on this last point and it is somewhat moot as I have an older spool on the new, Korean made LRH, and they get along just fine.

I think there are a number of factors at play here. And I think using Hardy as an illustration could result in stronger feelings/reactions than some other brands. Historically, Hardy has been seen as an English brand, looking at their past advertising much of this is their own doing. So even though it's rather commonplace now to find that a product has been manufactured in a different country than where that company is based, few of these companies have a brand so closely associated with their location. Which could lead us to notice the "Made in Korea" sticker on the foot of a reel, but overlook the "Made in China" label on the back of an iPhone or Thailand on a Nikon camera (not the best examples, but what I have sitting in front of me at the moment).

Another challenge companies face in getting consumers to accept "overseas" manufacturing (which of course Hardy always has been for US consumers) is that when this shift first started, cost savings were rarely achieved only through reduced labor costs. Often less expensive manufacturing techniques and materials were substituted as well, frequently resulting in a lower quality product. So although today the quality of products coming out of these locations can be phenomenal, it takes quite a while for the impression created years ago from a subpar product to fade from a consumer's mind.

Again, due to the connection between "overseas manufacturing" and "cost saving" which exists in many consumers minds, Hardy's pricing on their Korean made reels could have been hard to accept. I recall paying between $225-250 for the new LRH I mentioned above. I'm not sure what the English made versions were going for just before this time, but unless it was a fair bit more I can see someone questioning why the newer version cost what it did.

And we need to keep in mind the audience here on the "classic fly rod forum". We tend to spend more time talking about classic or historic rods than those crafted by makers using non-traditional techniques. Mention of a bamboo rod created anywhere but the US or UK is rare, and a positive word about a bamboo rod made in Japan or China is... well, I can't remember one. It's hard to deny that a classic bias exists. But in other markets and particularly among younger consumers there is less of a "country of origin" awareness. I don't have much experience with this but I wonder if the graphite crowd could tell you where their rod or reel was made as quickly as most members of this forum can.

Anyway to sum it up, I think Hardy may get more grief than many companies partly due to feelings that they denied their heritage by moving their production. While such a move cost jobs at the time, it's possible it saved the company and helped them stay in business long enough bring back some domestic production.

"The Lost World of Mr. Hardy" is an interesting film to check out if Hardy, the evolution of its of manufacturing, and the challenges of remaining a viable company are of interest.

best,
Andy
A. Rubey Rod Co.
rubeyrods.com

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oddsnrods
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#6

Post by oddsnrods »

Hardys were, and still are, based in the north of England in a town named Alnwick, pronounced 'Ann-ick'.

Hardys did move much of their production to Europe and the Far East to save costs, till they discovered that to many anglers the 'perception' of who makes their reels, plus where they are made, is an essential part of the whole experience; for which anglers were willing to pay a premium for their so-called 'classic' line of reels. Hardy's, like other companies, decided to bring some production back to Alnwick - 'reshoring' as it is known.

One answer to the original question- there is an emotional aspect at play regarding quality fishing reels- seeing on the reel 'Made In England' instead of 'Designed and Developed by Hardy's, England' being quite different.

More on the subject in the film made about the firm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIJ8YorFnMM

Malcolm

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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#7

Post by Webfly »

Multiple great answers...

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Brooks
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#8

Post by Brooks »

I was able to visit and work in the Hardy factory in Alnwick for the better part of a week back in '97. Hardy was still hand-pouring reels then and also a few were machined back then.

I was also able to work an afternoon in the bamboo shop. Which was cool.

The Hardy managers and Andy Murray took me spey fishing on the Tay in Scotland for salmon while I was visiting. The ghillies wore ties and knickers and coats. You know where the tradition of wearing a tie comes from? A tie cinches your collar tight to keep out the cold. At least that's what Andy Murray told me. I froze my ass off in the sleet and cold on the Tay that late fall day. Wish I had a tie!

From my perspective, the reels that were hand-poured in Alnwick had an old-world mojo that the machined reels didn't have. And in the early 2000's when Hardy started chucking up reels in CNC machines in Korea, to me, all the history, tradition (the 'mojo') was gone entirely.

The Korean machined reels were/are, no doubt, very well made. But they are most likely made by machinists that would care less if they were making a reel, or a bicycle hub, or an auto part.

When Hardy moved most all of their production to Korea, in, I think 2005? they were telling their customers "that's where the best aluminum is". I felt that was pretty lame.

When I was in Alnwick in '97 getting to do hands-on reel building with the hand-poured reels, it was with craftsmen that I drank with at the local pub at night (until very late), dined with, listened to old Hardy fishing stories, admired their skill and patience at their benches as they cracked open molds, cleaned up castings, drilled and tapped pieces. It was a craft, not an industrial "contract".

Nowadays all hi-end quality reels are machined and I really like many of them. But I tend not to care for the ones that are just marketing brands (they refer to themselves as "designers") or reels sourced out for the cheap, rather than made by actual fishing companies. But that's just my personal hang-up I guess.

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Brian K. Shaffer
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#9

Post by Brian K. Shaffer »

We all accept fly reels a little at a time... as we learn fly reels.

Case in point - I was 'turned out' to collecting by hating the J. Austin Forbes Sandstone fly reel.
Now I own several.. for the same reason that at first glance I disliked about them very much...

- they are simple

(bulldog shows off a nice 2.5inch here: https://fiberglassflyrodders.com/forum/ ... 9&start=25)
" There's no such thing as a fly fisherman wholly satisfied with his casting performance. " ~ Jim Green (1971)
" Just once I wish a trout would wink at me. " ~ Brian Shaffer

Use the SEARCH for justification and reasoning.

Trout120-1
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#10

Post by Trout120-1 »

History.

Boise Bamboo
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#11

Post by Boise Bamboo »

I am silently waiting for 30 years from now when my Korean made Bougle will be worth twice the price of a UK made Bougle, because of the limited number that were made overseas. Scarcity! That is how collecting works, right?

;) Tongue firmly in cheek...

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BigTJ
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#12

Post by BigTJ »

It’s a bit of a head scratcher to see the assumption above that the Asian machinists do not care what they are making. For all we know they could be dedicated fly fishermen with a passion for the gear they make. You guys know there are trout in Korea and people fly fish for them there, right?

https://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/g ... ing-guide/

I’m not saying that any of the machinists there are necessarily fishermen, but they could be. They don’t even need to be fishermen to care about and like the products they make. For all we know some of the Hardy reel makers of old could have cared less what they were making either (I understand many of them were just trying to make a living) it just seems we should not assume we understand these people who are more than likely some really great folks and hard workers. It’s probably best we leave the workers out of the discussion, English or Asian, as they have no control over where the reels are made. Likewise the quality of the products comes down to management and the engineers, who design the products, run the production, and are ultimately responsible for what goes out the door.

In terms of quality of all modern Hardy reels post 1990 my experience is that it’s been hit and miss. Some of the newer stuff is excellent some is just “meh”. It feels like Hardy is nearing the end of the line with all the ownership upheaval but we will see.

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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#13

Post by flyslinger »

"Hardys did move much of their production to Europe and the Far East to save costs, till they discovered that to many anglers the 'perception' of who makes their reels, plus where they are made, is an essential part of the whole experience"

I think Malcom hit the nail on the head with this.
I would like to add that to me, somehow, an "authentic" Hardy reel is one made in England. Hardy reels, like many other iconic items that are manufactured in some different country than that of their original birthplace, are of less worth to me because they just seem almost "counterfeit".
Waterford crystal not made in Ireland, Henckel and Wusthof knives not made in Germany, E. Dehillerin classic copper French cookware not made in Paris, France. All seem to be of less value from my perspective, regardless if the overseas products are of near or identical quality.
By moving production elsewhere, they have damaged their brand in my minds eye. I don't know exactly why, but that's the feeling I get.
I know some will disagree, but I also know I'm far from alone in these beliefs.
"Always drink upstream from the herd."

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mer
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#14

Post by mer »

Good thing Scotch can only be called Scotch if it's from Scotland.
Waterford crystal. Agreed on that.

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Brooks
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#15

Post by Brooks »

I guess maybe it's a "unique vs. pablum" kind of a thing. Just like the rods that we love.

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Marterius
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#16

Post by Marterius »

I am not a collector, I am a fly fisherman, but fly fishing is a game; a grown up's game with grown up's toys. We are playing and that is what makes fishing fun. Therefore, we can afford to care for how some Englishman tied a particular fly 100 years ago - did he use red or yellow seal's fur? We can afford to pay incredible sums for hand made bamboo rods, but we surely want it to be made by the man who's name is on the blank. And a part of this game is to care for where a "British" reel is made.

I am driving a Japanese SUV at the moment, the third in a line, and I will probably replace it with a fourth Japanese SUV later this year. But should I ever buy a Morgan, as I am dreaming about, I surely don't want to find out that it was made in Korea no matter what it did to the price. :)

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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#17

Post by jeffkn1 »

Fenwick and Phillipson are popular among some of the collectors in Japan, where they are happy to pay premium prices for them. What do you suppose they would think if someone offered to sell them an American brand rod made anywhere but the US?
A group of gentlemen would periodically visit the gun department of the store where I worked in the Seventies. They would come in typically on a Sunday afternoon, maybe after a Sunday dinner, and one of them would do all the speaking for the group. I do not recall whether they were Italian or Portuguese extraction - they always spoke quietly among themselves. They always looked at Browning shotguns, nothing else. They had no interest in any Browning shotgun not made in Liege. I didn't have to ask them what was wrong with the quality built Brownings from Japan. It mattered not how well those were made.
I don't know how it is today, but it wouldn't surprise me if the best beluga is still imported from Russia.
We can go on endlessly about personal preferences. The important thing is that we shouldn't have to justify those preferences to anyone else. Buy what you like. When market shares drop enough production will return to the home country. If it never does, then that shows the old dinosaurs are finally in the minority - the younger buyers don't care.

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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#18

Post by Hankinsfly »

I’m going to propose an idea that may evoke conflict, but I think it’s relevant. I think for some, it’s an inherent racial and ethnocentric bias. I know, you’re thinking I should probably be kicked off the forum for saying that. But you may not know you have that concept influencing your thinking, but I believe a lot of us do. It may not be overt, you may not believe you have that part of your thinking, you may consider yourself completely non-racist and celebrate other cultures and beliefs, and maybe I am plain wrong, but I just think you value something made by your countrymen, kinfolk, and from your ancestral land more than you do if it were made anywhere else. We are ethnocentric people by nature. I don’t feel this is all of the answer, but I do think this is an influencer, especially when it comes historical tackle. Would you prefer an American made rod over a Japanese made rod if both rods were similar in specs? As to what the gentleman said earlier, Korea being “a third world country.” (Surely it was S. Korea, and I would hardly call S. Korea a third-world country. Maybe the third-world remark was referring to country prior to modernization?)

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Brian K. Shaffer
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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#19

Post by Brian K. Shaffer »

I think for some... Please do not think for me.

Race belongs no where in this discussion. (except human)

Maybe moon people or other beings make a better fly reel... and we don't even know about it yet.
" There's no such thing as a fly fisherman wholly satisfied with his casting performance. " ~ Jim Green (1971)
" Just once I wish a trout would wink at me. " ~ Brian Shaffer

Use the SEARCH for justification and reasoning.

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Re: Manufacturing prejudice?

#20

Post by Doug K »

BigTJ wrote: You guys know there are trout in Korea and people fly fish for them there, right?

https://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/g ... ing-guide/
thanks for the link, that's a terrific article. Now I have a new bucket list item, need to go to Korea and catch some of their native trout..

Korea makes a lot of good fishing tackle..
http://www.doyofishing.co.kr
makes Lews, Abu, BPS and Pfleuger
http://banax.co.kr
makes Quantum and Okuma

http://www.yellowstoneangler.com/gear-r ... t-shootout
"Many of the best rods are built in one factory in Korea. The Hardy rods are designed in England, the Douglas rods in the USA, the Loop rods in Sweden."

I went to look since I couldn't remember the history, per wiki,

In 1967 Hardy Brothers was bought out by the Harris and Sheldon group and in 1985 renamed the "House of Hardy Limited." It was later merged with a former Hardy employee's fishing company and renamed "Hardy and Greys Limited" in 2004.
In 2013 the company Hardy & Greys was sold to Pure Fishing, a division of conglomerate Jarden Corporation, that was later renamed Newell Brands. Newell sold Pure Fishing to Sycamore Partners in 2018.
** end wiki

by this point Hardys is just a brand like any other.. Sycamore Investments' website says,

Pure Fishing is a leading global provider of fishing tackle, lures, rods and reels with a portfolio of brands that includes Abu Garcia®, All Star®, Berkley®, Chub®, Fenwick®, Greys®, Hardy®, Hodgman®, Johnson™, JRC®, Mitchell®, Penn®, Pflueger®, Sebile®, Shakespeare®, SpiderWire®, Stren®, and Ugly Stik®.

In a way it's kind of impressive, to have assembled all those names..
They still advertise jobs for Penn in Philadelphia, for engineering and manufacturing ? didn't know that..
https://www.purefishing.com/careers/philadelphia/

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