tuning pawl springs - compiled

Past Member · Post by **Past Member** » 02/09/07 17:42

stuck this up here because the topic comes up all the time.
Please don't go out a break pawl springs on my account.

Past Member · Post by **Past Member** » 02/10/07 15:12

It turns out that this reel is set up for RH how hard is it to switch to LH retrieve?

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 02/10/07 17:58

if it has the symmetric check like this (post 1958 ) :
you just have to disengage one pawl and engage the other:

if it's the older check - both checks intended for RHW only

there's also single-check Pridex, while they're made for RHW

single-check Pridex tuned for LHW

Past Member · Post by **Past Member** » 02/10/07 20:27

...it looks like this is a single pawl version RH...the guy said the resistance felt the same in both directions....what does this mean?

Bulldog....how do you reverse it? Is it simple tweaking the spring?

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 02/11/07 08:09

try flipping the pawl spring and see how it behaves.
If it doesn't engage, or is still stouter in RH wind than in RH pay, then you need to adjust the spring.
I service these reels, including a complete takedown cleaning and rebuild with tuning the spring.
I can also give you some tuning hints if you want to clean and tune it yourself.

canebreak · Post by **canebreak** » 02/11/07 16:16

BD-

I've got a Pridex witht the symmetric check arrangement ala your first photo. I'd greatly appreciate any and all tuning hints you're willing to share. TIA...

CB

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 02/11/07 17:34

first of all, you have to be careful bending springs, because if they break, what are you going to do.
The only guy that has these is in the UK and will only take pound-sterling (no paypal).
Over several years I have assembled a set of spring-bending pliers that have radii on every edge and contacting surface - no sharp corners to break springs.

spring timing (check the last photo above, this is a converted reel, tuned for LHW (counterclockwise rotation):
(BTW, the amount of lead in that photo appears exaggerated because of the oblique angle of the photo)

When the pawl is pointing directly at the center of the spindle, the spring tension is essentially the same in each direction, but you also gain just a touch of lightness due to the pawl shape and slot. For your adjustments, look at how the tip of the at-rest pawl can lead or follow on the spindle (like timing a car). If the pawl tip is slightly past the spindle in the direction of rotation, you're much lighter in the direction of rotation, and will be much stouter in the opposite direction. Too far with that same adjustment and the pawl won't engage. If the pawl is lagging on the spindle, the resistance will be equal in wind and pay, or may even be stouter in wind even with the pawl properly flipped.
The two bends on the bottom leaf are mainly what adjusts the timing on the pawl, and the overall spread adjusts the total tension. (And obviously, all three of these bend points affect both tension and pawl orientation to some degree).
knee

lower leaf

upper leaf

I'm increasing the bends in every one of these photos, because the article was about tired springs on very old Dingley reels. and OK, I'm using the wrong set of pliers as was pointed out to me when the photos were printed.

Usually on Young reels, you'll be decreasing the knee bend and may need to increase the upper leaf bend a little to add tension (load) to the spring.

when you have the spring where you want it, you bake in the oven at 350oF to set the final shape - 15 minutes is all you need, air cool. This temper keeps it from relaxing (at least quickly - it will still relax over decades, centuries, etc.) But the set temper significantly slows the rate of spring creep - the rate of creep increases as the ambient temperature gets closer to the set temperature. (You can't increase the set temperature too high, or you will soften the hardness of the spring)

I'd like to point out that I've done all the trial and error, and have a goal that I'm shooting for when I make the very first bend. It's easier for me to do than to describe...

canebreak · Post by **canebreak** » 02/11/07 18:51

Thanks, BD! I thought the explanation and photos made the process very understandable. I'd certainly feel confident attempting it. I suppose the trial and error at this point for one of us, is the amount of bend, or additional flex, to add to the spring without over-stressing it. I would imagine a little goes a long way. I'm curious as to your experiments (I assume) with the set temperature. Is there a minimum/maximum below which no benefit occurs, or alternately, the spring becomes too brittle?

Jeff

PS What reel lube do you recommend?

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 02/11/07 18:56

if the set temperature is too low - your spring will be too soft after sitting the warm car trunk.

if the temperature is too high, it softens the base metal to a lower hardness and loses some of its spring - I don't know where that is, but it's probably between 400 and 500 degrees F and I've had luck even on brass springs so the 350 is both safe and effective.

Yes, a little bit goes a long way. Now that you know which way you need to go, bend a little and reinstall the spring to check the result. I use popsicle sticks and spanish cedar blocks to push springs in and out. When you like it - bake it.

reel lube? Hot Sauce. they make a Grease and Lube (light oil)
The blue above is Daiwa blue and that used to be my choice. However, after comparing used Daiwa blue and hot sauce, it's amazing how soft the Hot Sauce remains over long times, while the Daiwa blue gets stiff (as do most other greases).
when the grease is getting stiff, it's breaking down into waxes and organic acids. The waxes are what are so hard to remove on old reels.

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 02/16/07 04:51

I think it was Cane Head that asked on another thread - I couldn't find it - why not just flip the pawls, why go to the trouble of tuning?

I finished up a reel last night for Dennis W and it's a great example. This was a RWH reel and I drilled and tapped a new hole for the line guard on the other side.
When I flipped the first pawl, it was great in pay but was barely engaging the drag gear in wind - I would be worried winding quickly on a fish that it would spit the pawl and then you'd have a free-spinning spool with no check.
The second, when I flipped it was still stronger in (now) wind than in pay.
When I was done tuning each spring, I was delighted with them. Soft in wind and, to me, the pay on each was al dente.

But to show you how differently each piece of steel behaves: usually I can identify which pawl station I tuned which spring for by the shape of the spring. I couldn't tell any difference in the shape on these. After I baked them, I looked very critically and thought I had each back in the right place. One pawl was way too stiff in wind and the second was way too light in pay. When I switched them back, the reel was back to al dente, with ginger winds and, to me, perfect moderate pay tension. Dennis, you're really goint to like this.

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 05/21/07 08:10

Great reel, Ken and and will certainly convert if you reshape a set of new A-4 springs.
here's a photo of a Uniqua I converted so you can see the shape.

bend these gently, because they're thin and high-carbon
they will break (another reason to buy new springs to rebend - you don't want to break the old ones).
After you have it tuned to your liking, bake the spring in your oven at 350oF for 15 minutes to set the final shape.

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 05/21/07 13:13

here's the single best pliers for bending springs

www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=14484

SnooKen · Post by **SnooKen** » 10/06/07 07:33

BD; Have you ever considered putting out a small format book detailing care, maintenance and tuning of classic reels? It would be a huge boon for all of us, even if just to gain greater depth of understanding of what we shouldn't do.

Ken

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 12/15/07 17:32

BH Spey wrote:I found a link to a japanese site containing the basic info on the conversion: http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/amago/b-streams/ ... list2.html but found after playing with it a while that the only way to make it work properly was to add about a 15 degree upturn to the last 3/8" of the rebent spring depicted in the photos on the above site. You need to reset the pin limiting the pawl rotation so that it is between the two points on the pawl (opposite the cut off point). After retempering the spring following Bulldog's instructions in the tuning thread above it works like a dream!

kam4.clarks · Post by **kam4.clarks** » 08/13/08 20:16

I have found that the orientation of the pawl will alter the drag intensity of the check mechanism for my old Hardy Perfects, St. Georges, the newer Lightweights and Young Beaudex and Pridex reels. If you have one pawl activated with spring pressure, you will notice a distinct difference in tension between reeling in and reverse reeling. If you flip the pawl over, the direction of tension will reverse. For dual spring-pawl reels, it doesn't matter if they are what has been referred to as "symettric" or "older style" architecture, just position the pawls so the slot is in the same direction relative to the reel spool gear. The pawl will seat differently, and angle differentlly when it meshes into the spool gear, based on how it is flipped. I have never had any reason to physically alter the spring shape unless it was a non adjustable drag reel.

Flip the pawl and check out the directional difference.

Kenny

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 09/26/08 02:33

and if the pawl does not engage (properly or at all) when you flip it, then the spring shape must be altered if you want to make it function (properly or at all).

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 11/18/08 03:49

several mechanical questions addressed on this thread, including spindle runout adjustments on prewar and postwar Young reels:
http://fiberglassflyrodders.com/forum?topic=5550

PayneRods.clarks · Post by **PayneRods.clarks** » 06/01/09 15:15

Agree with above: I have sometimes just swapped the pawls from one side to the other and flipped them or even tried ones from other reels (similar or same). You would be amazed at the difference in felt drag without playing with the springs.

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 06/01/09 18:21

sometimes you get lucky.
Other times, they don't engage when you try that.
So having a system that will make them work all of the time is really handy.

Moucheur · Post by **Moucheur** » 01/25/12 12:14

Once more, the forum has proved invaluable. I was cleaning a Mark VI Bougle, whose initial drag setting has always been too light, and remembered Bulldog's recipe for tuning and tempering the pawl springs. Careful adjustment, quick test, 15 minutes in a 350 oven, let the spring cool, re-install. Bingo.

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