The San Jose Thompson Model â??200â??.....

[turtledoc]

....a reel that I thought was just folklore, a mythical legend from the west coast that only existed in magazine ads from the mid-1940s…….that is until I stumbled across this reel for sale from NW Tackle just before the Holidays.  

I think it might / could be a San Jose Thompson Model “200”?








In the last few years my interest in collecting has shifted from a menagerie of early UK and US reels to primarily post WWII bench made reels from US makers.  Even as I sold off my reels from Hardy’s, Young, Dingley, etc to fund my habit, I held onto this cherished San Jose Thompson 100 because I thought it was a neat reel with a storied history and cult following with west coast fly fishers in post WWII.




I have a couple ads from 1945 / 46 that show an illustration of a San Jose Thompson 100 but also provide specifications for a “Model 200” (but no photo).   I’ve seen a few narrow frame Model 100 Thompson reels from San Jose, but I’d never seen a wide frame version until seeing the one I just got from Bud.  Never having seen one, I had wondered if the San Jose Thompson was really made in two sizes, and if it was, I wondered what a Model 200 would look like?  Was it the same as a San Fran Model 500, or was the width of a Model 200 in between the width of a Model 100 & Model 500?  The line capacity in the text ad for the San Jose Model 200 is identical to the capacity listed in ads for the San Francisco Thompson Model 500, so I suspected that if the Model 200 reel was ever made it was likely the same basic reel as the model that was later named the Model 500 when production shifted to San Fran, versus there being three distinct sizes / models (frame widths) of Thompson reels.   

If someone has a reel that they believe to be a Model 200 that is narrower than the wide frame San Jose reel that I have and of a width / dimension between that of a standard Model 100 and that of the San Fran 500 I would really enjoy seeing photos.

Baring a “tweener” width reel showing up though, I am going to assume that the wide frame reel that I recently got would be considered a Model 200. 

It’s hard to tell from the photos, but in the hand it is very clear that the narrow frame version reel that I have is an early example than the wide frame (possible Model 200).   The narrow reel appears to be sand cast aluminum versus being machined from tube which is how the wide frame appears to have been made.  Also, the overall finish work of the wide frame model is much more refined than the narrow version.

It appears that the narrow version had a leaded spool, but that the rest of the reel was made in the white.   The wide version appears to have been made entirely in the white with the exception of the handle knob which is black painted aluminum.

Mark B

Here are some pics of the pair (Note:  I am pretty sure the foot on the wide frame reel is a replacement...I think it would have originally been a small ribbed brass foot like on the narrow Model 100):






And take down pics of both:


  

[afgantrout]

That's a lovely pair of reels...I really like those line guards!

[16pmd]

Looks to me like the "200" is just like the 500 models I've seen.  It could be that the numbering system was just changed over time as you speculated could be the case.  I think the fact that nobody has turned up a third, truly different model indicates that it was a change in the numbers, not the reels.  I think what was originally called a 200 was renamed a 500.  There were quite a few variants and a couple of other brand names including Sierra King.  The SF Thompsons by Reels, Inc. had the model number written on the reel, but the San Jose Floyd Lovens models I've seen did not.  Most reels had a single large screw on the winding plate, but others (like yours), both 100's and 500's, had three small screws instead.  I have seen a few with no writing at all, including one with gold anodized spool and sideplate.

[bulldog1935]

no question is is the first version of the 500.

Nice reel, long thread title...(Michener write it?)

[ttrotter]

Nice grab, Mark :-)

[turtledoc]

Yep...long title...   I realized it when I first posted and was too lazy to change it then....but have now.

16 pmd - I think the gold face reel was one completed in the 1980s with some NOS parts for the late Mr. James Schaaf?  

I need to post a photo of a San Fran 500 on it's side and this wide frame San Jose reel.   It's hard to tell from the photos that are shown, but the placement of the line-guide and window in the frame of the San Jose reel is different than a San Fran reel. 

The other noticable difference is that it sounds more like a Hardy Perfect than a San Fran 500.    In looking at the pawl and how it engages I can see no reason for this different sound but it's much more stout.

Definitely a reel that I am happy to have and hope to learn more about.

mark B

[cdmoore]

First of all, that reel is DAMN COOL, Mark.  And this from an avowed Hardy-phile.

And not to hijack your thread, but every time I see one of these reels, the question of lefties hits me like a ton of bricks.  I am familiar with all the arguments about population %, etc.  But here we have a post war reel, produced for a number of years, that *should* have shown some influence from the huge rise in numbers of anglers using spinning gear, and left handed at that, which came about during the 1950s-70s.  Why, even Hardys had come to their senses by this time (late 20s actually).  Can it really be true that Thompson refused to make a lefty reel?  (Yes, I am aware of the apparently single example that was converted post-factory).  Or, have we just not found one yet (can that also be possible...or is someone just keeping his mouth shut)?

C

[Dylan]

Most interesting post Mark!
Lovely reels and pictures.

Now, if I could just luck upon a "marked" Thompson 200!!  

Dylan

[16pmd]

Doc,
Gold reel was definitely done way before Jim Schaaf acquired the Thompson parts.  I have owned it from before that time.  Could have been made when Doug Merrick and Winston owned the parts.  Frank Matarelli of fly tying tool fame and master machinist helped assemble reels for Winston.

[turtledoc]

Dylan -

As far as I know, none of the San Jose reels were marked with a model designation.

Here is an ad copy for a black finish reel from 1946 for reference:


Chris -

I strongly suspect that the reason there were know LHW Thompsons originally offered from the factory is that the bulk of the Thompson reels were made during a relatively short time-frame just before and after WWII and likely in relatively small numbers.    If this line of reels had made it I suspect that eventually they would have been offered in LHW.   Think about the number of LHW Hardy's that are seen from the WWII era...not many...and there were many more total Hardy's than Thompsons.

16 pmd -

I should have looked at my old notes before suggesting that the gold anodized Thompson was a Schaaf era reel....sorry about that.   Based on the notes the gold spool / face reel(s) were done by Talbot / Morgan etal at Winston. 

Based on information compiled in this and other threads, a general time line for Thompson reels is thought to be:

Late 1930s (likely mid-1937 to late 1939) Siera King Fly Caster (BJB Co. Can Jose pre Patenet 1937)

Mid 1940s (likely late 1945 & 1946) San Jose Thompsons designated as Model 100 & 200

Approx. 1947-1949: San Francisco Reels, Inc. Thompsons distributed by Tri-Pak designated as Model 100 & 500

Potentially as early as 1950s through approx early 1970s Doug Merrick / Winston built Thompsons from remaining Reels, Inc. parts

Mid / Late 1990s: Jim Schaaf/Bruce Howell Thompsons (made with newly machined bright spools and new brass feet)

Mid 2000s: Bruce Howell Thompsons (made with newly machined bright spools and new brass feet)

Hope this is accurate...and revisions still possible (1-27-11)

Mark B

[16pmd]

Mark,
Looks like you've done some homework, as yours is the only timeline I've ever seen.  There is, however, a 30+ year hole in your timeline between 1949 and the early 80's when I think the bulk of the Thompson reels were produced, by a company called Reels, Inc.  Those are by far the most commonly found Thompsons.  I think Winston, under Doug Merrick began assembling Thompsons in San Francisco well before Tom Morgan bought Winston, probably some time in the 1960's or early 70's.   I think Thompsons were strictly a Doug Merrick project and that Tom Morgan didn't have anything to do with it.  By the early 80's Winston had already moved to Montana (in 1976) and I don't think had any hand in producing Thompsons.  In fact in the 1980's Winston instead commissioned Siskiyou Reels of Oregon to produce boxed sets of trout reel and extra spool.
Very interesting research with still some gaps in the history.  Not many around who can fill in the blanks, however.
  

[Flyman615]

Nice thread, guys!

I remember discussing the Thompson reels at the SF Winston shop in about 1972. I couldn't afford one for my occasional trips for steelhead or shad and felt they were a bit too heavy for most of my trout fishing ventures.

Very nice reels, however. Thanks for sharing, Mark!

Scott

[cdmoore]

I'll have to both agree with and question your comment on the lefties.  I can see your point about the reels produced just before and after the war.  But, I had no idea that these reels were produced for such a long time.  Which only begs the question about lefties even (what is the correct superlative for beg...louder, stronger, whinier?).

Would like to hear theories about this.  Seems at least the Schaaf/Talbot/Howell reels might have had a lefty thrown in for good measure...unless they were doing a strict reproduction like the Hardy 1903 Bougle of recent vintage, which only came in RHW.

Chris

[turtledoc]

16pmd -

Thank you for the additional information regarding how Winston and Mr. Merrick in particular fit in with the production of Thompson reels.

Can you please clarify one thing for me....you mention that in your experience the bulk of the Thompson reels were built by "Reels Inc".   Do you mean the San Francisco Thompsons like in the photo below?  These are the variations that I refer to as the "Tri-Pak" reels that were distributed by Tri-Pak Gun Kit Inc and are the variation that I see most often when searching on the internet or on the auction sites.    The San Jose Thompson Ads that I have seen for reels by Floyd T. Lovens have all been 1945 / 46, and the ONLY San Fran Tri-Pak Thompson Ad that I've seen was from 1947.    Based on this limited information I'm assumed that the SanJose reel variations were roughly late 1930s to mid-1940s and by 1947 the production was in San Fran with Tri-Pak?    We might both be referring to the same reels when I say Tri-Pak and you say Reels Inc, but if Reels Inc. is yet another distributor that would be neat to have verified. 

A San Fran Model 100 & 500 that fell victim as casualities of my collecting a few years ago:




Another 1946 San Jose Ad:


The only San Fran Ad that I have seen (Note: it is from 1947, the 1921 at the top of the page is not a year reference)


The fliers that were included with the San Fran Tri-Pak reels:



Chris - 

I have always assumed that production was only a few years and did not extend past about 1950 before starting up again with NOS parts with gentleman from Winston in the 1980s, but that maybe isn't so clear anymore.    Based on past correpsondance with Mr. Howell I think that the reels made since the 1980s were using NOS parts with new spools, feet, and in some cases face plates being made, and again it doesn't sound like the numbers made were alot.

Scott -

Do you recall if the reels you saw in the San Fran Winston shop circa 1972 were "newly" made Thompsons, or were they used or old stock?  

I really like learning about reels like this and really appreciate the discussion so far.   Any and all additional comments are welcomed and appreciated.

Thanks !

Mark B 

[16pmd]

Mark,
To answer your questions, the San Francisco reels I've seen are marked "Reels, Inc. San Francisco, Cal" at the 6 o'clock position on the sideplate with "Thompson Reel Model 100 (or 500)" at the 12 o'clock position.  They have smooth brass feet, while the San Jose models have ribbed brass feet.  I can't quite make out the details of your photo of your boxed reels, but I think they do say "Reels Inc." at the 6 o'clock position.  I don't have any boxes, but it could well be that the reels were made by Reels, Inc. but distributed by Tri-Pak (as stated on the box) and were therefore one and the same.
I think it's worth remembering that when Thompsons were made, virtually everyone, righties and lefties, cranked with their right hand - that's just the way it was - so it's not at all surprising that reels made in limited quantities like Thompsons were made only in right hand wind.  Later versions, also limited in quantity, and since they were made from left over parts, would also naturally be RH only. 

[turtledoc]

WOW, I had not remembered / noticed that the black San Fran Thompson reels said Reels Inc. until you mentioned that it was at 6 O'clock on the reels you were most familiar and I looked again at some better photos of the black 100 & 500 from San Fran that I once owned.

I do now see that not only do they say "Reels Inc," on the face, but there also is no mention of "Tri-Pak" anywhere on the reel, and that reference is only on the boxes.


Sorry for causing some confusion, but it's clear now that the "Reels Inc" and Tri-Pak were at some point one in the same although I suppose it is possible that production could have continued after Tri-Pak was no longer the distributor.

Hopefully Scott or another member will have some memory or ads of teh San Fran reels to fill in the gap.

Thanks again for the info !

Mark B

[cdmoore]

Thanks.  I didn't fully appreciate you were saying that for many years they were assembled from parts.

C

[Flyman615]

Mark:

Well, as a then 24-year-old newcomer to flyfishing, I probably couldn't say whether the conversation that Saturday long ago at the Winston shop in San Francisco pertained to "old" or newly assembled Thompson reels.

I do remember Mr. Merrick opining that they were "a better design for big fish than the Hardy Perfect".

Scott

[BobS]

Here are a couple pics of my Model 100 LHW conversion.

[cdmoore]

Plus, now people will know what I was referring to.

Cheers, Bob, et al.

C