Faked Over Hardy Perfect

The purpose of this board is to discuss, ask questions about, and give answers concerning fly reels, their makers and their history.

Moderator: Ken M 44

User avatar
dder
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1153
Joined: 12/26/07 19:00
Location: Kootenays BC Canada

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#21

Post by dder »

I too would like to thank John and Brian for posting these photo,s of these 2 reels. When compared original to reworked reissue the difference is noticeable but to someone not well versed in Hardy reels like myself,easy enough to be fooled.While it isn,t possible to name names on forum I hope someone will PM or email me when you get to the full transparency and exposure part. Thanks for taking this issue on from a small collector and fisherman. Daryl
Last edited by dder on 10/26/12 18:48, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
CTobias
Guide
Posts: 237
Joined: 02/06/12 19:36
Location: State of confusion

Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#22

Post by CTobias »

Good thing I can't afford any of the reels in question. I go after the cheap stuff no one wants.

User avatar
bow river
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 2503
Joined: 08/20/07 18:00

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#23

Post by bow river »

solitaryangle wrote:The difference is thousands of dollars potentially, depending on the rarity of the reel. Well worth it for the many crooks out there.

Gary
for sure , plus it's not like they just fake one up , a good few floating around , few models also

HERE"S something for ya to think about , most people or shady dealers who sell these faked up reels , they can't do that kind of work , they have someone else do it for them ,
Come book a fishing trip with me on Canada's best trout river , the world famous Bow River , also other fine mountain rivers , I collect old Hardys , Dingleys, Youngs , also buy sell & trade

User avatar
Silver Doctor
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1084
Joined: 06/13/08 18:00
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Contact:

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#24

Post by Silver Doctor »

Here is a side by side comparison of the two hardy logos. I've worked with logos and trademarks for most of my life and side by comparison is always valuable. Notice the difference in quality of line cut.

Image

User avatar
bow river
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 2503
Joined: 08/20/07 18:00

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#25

Post by bow river »

sorry it took me so long to put up some pictures , we've had snow and bad weather which took my time away

here's a few pictures of some of the logo's from reels i have , one easy tell on the logo's is look at the logo with the hand '' so called rod in hand'' on the fake reel look at where the thumb sits compared to the rest of the logo's , same as the reel in the fake reel , it's logo it's another give away that not correct ,

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Come book a fishing trip with me on Canada's best trout river , the world famous Bow River , also other fine mountain rivers , I collect old Hardys , Dingleys, Youngs , also buy sell & trade

MFRS
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1056
Joined: 01/27/08 19:00

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#26

Post by MFRS »

Silver Doctor wrote:Here is a side by side comparison of the two hardy logos. I've worked with logos and trademarks for most of my life and side by comparison is always valuable. Notice the difference in quality of line cut.

Image
Now, the biggest difference I see is the most recent logo (left) is one dimensional and the early logo is two dimensional. I see this with the butt cap being shown at a slight angle.

User avatar
bow river
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 2503
Joined: 08/20/07 18:00

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#27

Post by bow river »

MFRS wrote:
Silver Doctor wrote:Here is a side by side comparison of the two hardy logos. I've worked with logos and trademarks for most of my life and side by comparison is always valuable. Notice the difference in quality of line cut.

Image
Now, the biggest difference I see is the most recent logo (left) is one dimensional and the early logo is two dimensional. I see this with the butt cap being shown at a slight angle.

yes gary ,funny as i never even noticed that myself , also as john stated , have a look at the strap over , you can see the correct reels are slightly rounded on the edges , also compare the tub that the plastic handle sits in on the fake one , that handle is another give away it's not correct , most but not all the older handles will be a slight yellow from age or a nice white from being the real ivory handles
Come book a fishing trip with me on Canada's best trout river , the world famous Bow River , also other fine mountain rivers , I collect old Hardys , Dingleys, Youngs , also buy sell & trade

User avatar
Ken M 44
Administrator
Posts: 2170
Joined: 08/17/05 18:00
Location: Hereford, England

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#28

Post by Ken M 44 »

As I was told quite a long time ago - it does not matter who did it, where it came from or who is selling it just start by looking at the logo -
1) no thumbnail, no good, no buy ....
2) spoked ariel and not uniqua , not good, not buy...

MFRS
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1056
Joined: 01/27/08 19:00

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#29

Post by MFRS »

Ken, that theory on the hardy logo was great earlier but since the culprits have access to this thread they may try to alter the logo (ie. stamp a line to indicate a nail) so the more we find as indicators to watch for, the more unlikely they will be successful at this tactic. This takes away their power to deceive and leaves them with a reel of lesser value than its original was; they are then unlikely to alter originals as it is pointless.

User avatar
Ken M 44
Administrator
Posts: 2170
Joined: 08/17/05 18:00
Location: Hereford, England

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#30

Post by Ken M 44 »

Very true - and the main problem of disclosure, viz. the information cannot be exclusive if it is also public, although it is also true to say that the more exposure the higher the cost for convincing duplicity so the more effort required to deceive the less the potential profit, the less the motive for making such reels. This is basically what happened with the fake Moscrop reels of a few years ago - the early ones became so well known that they fooled so few they were hardly worth making and so they seem to have gone off the radar.

Have to say my main concern when buying (which with such reels as above is very, very rare these days) is actually not made up faked reels but the undisclosed / discrete repairs to (in the most part) old reels - thing like replaced rims and replaced (but convincingly aged new parts) when you really have to look very, very hard to see anything 'wrong' but the value and originality has been killed. Probably the easiest of such changes is the switching of agates to ones that are perceived and therefore valued as rare.

User avatar
oddsnrods
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1377
Joined: 04/22/08 18:00

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#31

Post by oddsnrods »

It was originally stated (correctly in my opinion) that this was a Hardy replica reel 'distressed' to make it seem vintage. The logos are indeed different between new and old, not I would venture, by a forger. I quote from Drewett's book on the early replica Hardy Perfects made in 1992: 'New dies were obtained with which to inscribe the oval logo and hand trademark, designations which had not been employed on Hardy reels for some eighty years' Malcolm

PYochim
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 4999
Joined: 12/23/07 19:00
Location: Sheridan, Wyoming

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#32

Post by PYochim »

Silver Doctor, Thanks for the comparisons. All the more reasons to buy from trusted sources.

User avatar
Silver Doctor
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1084
Joined: 06/13/08 18:00
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Contact:

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#33

Post by Silver Doctor »

Here is another pair. Notice the differences in"
Text font
Circle sizes/height
Space between Hardy Bros
Text width
I could go on and on, the differences in both logos especially the casting had are almost too numerous to list once you start to study them.

Image

User avatar
enigma309
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1202
Joined: 01/09/08 19:00
Location: Great Britain
Contact:

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#34

Post by enigma309 »

Ken M 44 wrote:As I was told quite a long time ago - it does not matter who did it, where it came from or who is selling it just start by looking at the logo -
1) no thumbnail, no good, no buy ....
2) spoked ariel and not uniqua , not good, not buy...
A quick look at any serious collection, Jess Miller or John Drewett's books, or Rich's reel above, quickly dispels this myth.
When Hardys created the new R I H stamp for their replica reels it was based on an original reel.
Several all brass, and early BF, Perfects have the "spoked" reel in the rod in hand logo.

If anyone wants to send me good close ups of RIH logos I'll happily nail together a little database to see if we can determine how many different ones there were.
email hardyflyreel AT gmail DOT com
Brian

User avatar
oddsnrods
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1377
Joined: 04/22/08 18:00

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#35

Post by oddsnrods »

I am not lucky enough to own one of the brass faced replica Hardy reels, though I have just perused with an eye glass, a 2003 colour Hardy ad. for such reels. The so called faked up' reel at the start of this thread sports exactly the same rod in hand logo as the the Hardy reel advertised. I mean exactly, to the smallest detail of typeface position, type and image, depth of cut etc. I have designed many corporate logos and know my way around such things.

As far as buyer beware, they are all out to get us etc. I am fortunate to have a few nice Hardy reels which have come from a variety of sources, so far I have yet to be duped, not because I have been lucky, but I am informed, I know what I am looking at. It should be said that we collectors 'have it made' these days, there is the fine book by John Drewett which should be compulsory reading for all collectors. Then there is the internet which has so democratised collecting and has made the world available to us in the collecting sense. For example, I was after a Hardy Jock Scott a few years ago and typed the name into a search. Up popped a dealer who was selling one. I had never met or heard of this fellow, but I contacted him and we developed a relationship on line. In time the deal was done and the beautiful reel was mine.

I have also secured some nice Hardy reels on eBay, from sellers who's names I have not come across before, one such reel John Drewett himself described as 'absolutely outstanding' when I showed it to him, praise indeed. I love blurry bad pictures and those who just want to sell to the US, it narrows the field and keeps the Brits away who are/were used to paying high prices. Also loved those late night N.American eBay auctions for the same reason, the Brits were sleeping...

The very special Hardy Perfect that I have, just one of three made by the late Jim Hardy himself in 1950 while on the shop floor, was purchased from the most dubious character online who had no clue as to what he had. Jim sent me a very nice letter regarding the reel last year increasing its value many times.

Rely on the reputation of known dealers if you have scant knowledge yourself, in other words you are buying their expertise. They are not infallable however and can miss details when many items are passing though their hands. My lovely little clear finish 2 7/8" Uniqua, pictures of which I have posted here a few times was just such a reel. The dealer (who usually knows his stuff) suspected that it had been polished and not worth much. One glance and I could see that it was something special, not polished up however unused, I secured it 'for a song'.

Cheers, Malcolm
Last edited by oddsnrods on 10/28/12 20:26, edited 1 time in total.

PYochim
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 4999
Joined: 12/23/07 19:00
Location: Sheridan, Wyoming

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#36

Post by PYochim »

Any guess as to where the fake reel originated?

User avatar
oddsnrods
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1377
Joined: 04/22/08 18:00

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#37

Post by oddsnrods »

Alnwick.

I rest my case.

User avatar
bow river
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 2503
Joined: 08/20/07 18:00

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#38

Post by bow river »

PYochim wrote:Any guess as to where the fake reel originated?
That reel came from hardy and was in a set of 3 , sizes were 2 5/8, 3 inch, and 3 1/4 in leather case , some were sold as single reels , I think like 500 made in block leather cases

That reel that John posted that was faked over , stayed in the Uk , England , it was in the hands of someone just waiting for a buyer to come along that didn't know much about reels and could be suckered into thinking it was a true old 1902 reel and bingo , say good bye to your hard earned money ,

With some , they just think its so funny when they rip those off , I had one crooked dealer tell me in his own words "people should know what they buying"

And last , I can assure you that allot of people in the Uk have seen and read this posting , they talking about it , even them crooked sellers read this forum , and i know this for a fact , will it change anything , in my opinion , no , as allot of people might have a reel or two that's not correct themselves , someday it will all come up and maybe them really rich collectors who have the money will find out that they been duped on a bunch of reels , only they will have the funds to sue them crooks

Till then gentleman , always ask for second set of eyes , do lots homework , and ask questions , spread the word and try to help fellow forum members from getting ripped off ,

We can't say names on here , that's what pm"s and private emails are for ,
And those in the know in England should step up and make em stop ,
Come book a fishing trip with me on Canada's best trout river , the world famous Bow River , also other fine mountain rivers , I collect old Hardys , Dingleys, Youngs , also buy sell & trade

User avatar
flyslinger
Master Guide
Posts: 927
Joined: 05/30/07 18:00
Location: Beautiful downtown Glenn Springs, Tx.

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#39

Post by flyslinger »

Richard, I just sold a 3 1/4" brass faced reproduction. I may be totally mistaken, but I was told that all told 500 of them were made in that size. 250 went into the boxed sets of 3 reels, and 250 were sold individually in leather Hardy cases. the one I sold had the makers initials stamped inside and the number of that particular reel. In this case JWS and 244. One difference I see is the center part of the brass face is raised on the reel I sold and flat on the reel in the pictures john originally posted. Interesting!
Please note the grid looking pattern on the faux ivory handle. No way that can be made to look old, but I can see where the finish could be buffed or partially sanded off, the reel blackened with birchwood Casey's and the brass blackened chemically to fake an original. The con man could then at least double, if not triple his investment.
Richard is absolutely right, if you see a deal that is too good to be true, contact another collector that you trust for a second opinion before you pull the trigger and make a huge mistake. I recently saved myself a bundle by asking our resident Paul Young rod expert about a rod, before I tried to buy it. Talk about a near tragedy!

Dirk

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

restoration
Guide
Posts: 114
Joined: 08/10/10 18:00

Re: Faked Over Hardy Perfect

#40

Post by restoration »

There are a lot of questions being raised on this thread and it’s a little difficult to know where to begin.

First, the reel in my OP was sold, by a UK based dealer, as an 1896 BFP. As we’ve seen, the logos are modern ones and other details don’t add up – ergo – someone changed it to look older

There has been much speculation about who is involved in producing these faked over reels (and this is just the tip of a much bigger iceberg).There are many people in the UK, and elsewhere, who know the details about these men, however without direct evidence or proof it was always going to be difficult to bring these people to book. A lot of people have been shouting about this evil practice for a long time but no one had taken the time to piece the jigsaw puzzle together. Those who have been cheated have had the priority of trying to get their money back. As for the seller of these reels, that’s another story and I believe this is being dealt with by other parties.

I think most serious UK collectors know who the fraudsters are. But serious collectors are not their intended victims. They target the new collector, the guy who has heard about investment value and reads this forum, and others, which unconsciously promote “collecting”

As one experienced collector told me - the seller is a personable sort of chap who can hold a conversation; his answer to charges of selling dodgy reels is to shrug his shoulders and say “Hey, I’m a dealer”.
When asked about the man who does the faking this collector said “It’s best to take an instant dislike to him, it saves time”

Locked

Return to “Classic Reels”