Buying unauthenticated flies- reproduction cottage industry?

[Mike N]

Does it ever make sense to buy a “famous” fly without provenance? As prices rise, how many second-generation (I.e., the seller told Buyer #1 it was a fake, but Buyer #1 never told Buyer #2 it was a fake) reproductions are out there? Let me guess: a ton.

And, since the tier can’t “sign” a tiny fly, how do you authenticate? With tags? With easily reproduced business cards? A letter of authenticity from a recognized expert? By only collecting carded flies?

Authentic flies are works of art. But art has been faked for centuries...

Thanks for your thoughts.

Mike N

[cwfly]

I could not agree more. These little things are easily, in most cases, faked and there are very, very few people who could honestly tell and very, very many people who will simply purchase based on a representation of tyership (sort of like authorship, but not quite).
Perhaps carded in vintage and sealed cellophane might help, but still ...
I, evaluate claims of origin, most of the time, as I evaluate claims I would have submitted or opposed over more than forty years before a jury. There are rules of evidence that have a bearing on what proof has any value. There are rules on inference. All kinds of rules that over many, many decades have served a purpose. Proving a fact. If I do not find factual proof, even with reasonable inferences, the rest is static noise.

[gt05254]

I always marveled at the late Ted Niemeyers phrase, "I attest that this fly was tied by so and so" when he was asked (and paid, I believe) to authentic that a fly was indeed tied by so and so. More power to him (and I mean absolutely no disrespect!), but I was never comfortable with those attestations. There are so many great tyers out there, with materials resources that go back forever, that I believe, as I've stated here and other places a few times, that the best "authenticator" could be fooled.

The good news is, those best tyers with their materials resources, would likely be the last people to ever try to foist a sham fly on an unsuspecting public.

I'm not a fly collector. But "caveat emptor" sure has a place here.
Gary

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, As an example, I bought some Pott flies from Lang's last year along with a rather nice 'Bunyan Bug.' The Pott flies were not at all nice, but they are on Missoula cards with snelled hooks. I do intend to fix 'em up somewhat. Some bodies were really bad, and most of the woven hackle is gone or terrible. I tie OK, so I can make them look nice, but I'm 75, and sooner rather than later it'll be 'emptor caveat.' Maybe I should specify in my will to have them cremated with me.

Jay Edwards

[bearbutt]

I always marveled at the late Ted Niemeyers phrase, "I attest that this fly was tied by so and so" when he was asked (and paid, I believe) to authentic that a fly was indeed tied by so and so. More power to him (and I mean absolutely no disrespect!), but I was never comfortable with those attestations.

LOL--and, he wasn't the only one who operated this way. Some angling auction houses provide letters of authenticity on request. Same thing.

But I will say a lot of factors go into the authentication process, and the most important one to me is provenance. I want to know, first of all, how the fly got from the tier to the owner, and I want documentation of the stops along the way. Sometimes it's an oral history, but even so, the names and dates and people have to check out. Letters, original packing boxes, signed cards and notes, all of this 'metadata' is relevant and important. There's no specific single factor that will confirm authenticity of any fly (or a fly that has been restored). It's all a matter of degree, amounting, in the end, to a what is at best a considered judgment. As Charlie suggests.

Even when you spend decades learning the quirks of an individual tier, it's hard to judge a fly out of the blue without a history of that fly. Look at the variation of the heads and jungle cock of Carrie Stevens' streamers, for example: there's little consistency. Same for Flick's heads. And a lot of tiers commissioned other tiers to tie orders for them-- Rube Cross had Darbee tie streamers for him; Fran Betters hired local tiers; it goes on and on.

And as Gary says: there are a few tiers out there, with a good stash of vintage materials, who can tie and age a fly to look like anything Theodore Gordon tied.

As they say in the world of mechanical vintage watches: buy the seller as well. Do your DD on the person selling the flies.

And while you are at it all: save all your provenance records and correspondence so you have this stuff ready when it comes time for your wife to sell your collection.

bb

[Woodlakejag]

When it comes to flies or unmarked rods it’s always “buyer beware”, but that’s part of the fun for me. I enjoy digging into an object and trying to learn it’s history and authenticity. And it’s not an all or nothing thing, it’s a sliding scale. It’s hard to know for certain, but the closer I can get, the more value it has to me and the more I will pay for it.
I think all collectors of vintage/antique objects have to understand that they’re going to get burned on occasion. That’s ok. Expect it, factor it in to the process, and you’ll get over it faster. It’s not going to keep me from the hunt.

[roycestearns]

Agree with everything that's been said, I don't care who the expert is, proving someone tied a fly is very difficult, and the "authentication" cards are questionable at best. Cards with flies stitched on with fading and rust marks are hard to reproduce.

There are "tells" that can identify whether a fly is appropriate to it's card, for instance hooks tell a lot about the time period. Flies that are 75 + years old that are pristine are always questionable. There are some techniques that are easily recognized and copied, the red stripe on CS's streamers for example, and others that are less obvious, a tip tinsel wrapping technique for instance. In hand tied versus vice tied can help identify originality, but usually requires an "autopsy".

For example there were a lot of the flies supposedly tied by Polly Rosborough with the publication of "tying and fishing the Fuzzy Nymph" in 1965. I know Polly trained a number of tyers to produce those collections.

Here is providence about as good as it gets ... the work to duplicate this would make it to expensive to sell



Ca 1896, Carrie Frost only used Miss C J Frost for a very short time so it may be her earliest sales book. This was donated to the AMFF, hopefully they get around to displaying it so everyone has a chance to see it.

I don't think there would be enough money in a "cottage business" as most of those type of people couldn't do a very good reproduction, and the cost of vintage materials and hooks is not cheap. It's not unlike vintage furniture, you can rough it up and make it look old but as soon as you start doing handcut dove tails and solid drawer sides it gets difficult to make much money. I think most of the cards with flies are empty cards that have had flies added to make them look full. Non the less, the cards are good paper.

[ted patlen]

I know a person with a fly collection larger than most museums. He uses a system of check points that are taken from an original fly (Provence ,etc.). If he is asked to authenticate a fly, and that fly has all the checkpoints of the original he will say that he is most probably 99% sure of the authenticity. He will not say 100% percent Finding the origin of a fly is a study of approximations.


The photo itself tells a poignant story.


And in this case if you have one of these and you think it is a Hewitt, but it is a Darbee...not a bad deal

These carded pheasant tails may have been tied by Frank Sawyers wife...who knows for sure

[DrLogik]

I have a Rueben Cross fly that I bought from a very reliable source and it was authenticated by an equally reliable/knowledgeable source. I'm pretty confident it is the real thing; however, it doesn't "look" like a typical Cross fly (sparse and wispy with a cocked tail) but it does look the way this particular fly should look. I'm torn whether to have 100% confidence or not. If it was any other source I'd have a lot less confidence.

On the topic of forgery, if you want to watch a true story about a modern-day master art forger, watch the documentary Beltracchi - The Art of Forgery. It is a totally fascinating and immersive documentary with Wolfgang Beltracchi himself, his wife and family and the true players involved. He even goes in to and explains how he did what he did. Totally fascinating story.

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, My wife and I just finished watching all the episodes of this show for the third time. Lotsa forgeries here. I've seen a couple reels used as props, but no tackle storyline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovejoy

Jay Edwards

edit: Great writing!

[ted patlen]

I have a Rueben Cross fly that I bought from a very reliable source and it was authenticated by an equally reliable/knowledgeable source. I'm pretty confident it is the real thing; however, it doesn't "look" like a typical Cross fly (sparse and wispy with a cocked tail) but it does look the way this particular fly should look. I'm torn whether to have 100% confidence or not. If it was any other source I'd have a lot less confidence.

On the topic of forgery, if you want to watch a true story about a modern-day master art forger, watch the documentary Beltracchi - The Art of Forgery. It is a totally fascinating and immersive documentary with Wolfgang Beltracchi himself, his wife and family and the true players involved. He even goes in to and explains how he did what he did. Totally fascinating story.

It is said that Cross's flies tied in the morning were remarkably different than his later afternoon flies...possibly alcohol induced.

Another possiblibility, Not all flies made by the commercial tyers from the Catskills, (Darbee, Dette, etc) were perfect. Their businesses thrived because of their top of the line products, but some flies did not make the grade. These "seconds" wound up in a bargain basket. They may've had tails that were too short or wings un-even, too high, too sparse..etc. On a side note, when they went fishing these were the flies they used. After spending hours at the bench the last thing they wanted to do was tie more flies, so they doctored the flies for the conditions or improve the float...Yeah, of course they worked.

[upstate]

I have a friend who has a fly tied by the late Vince Marinaro! It is authentic having come from his family. However there is only one wing left on the fly and therefore only can fly in circles. I assume that this was one of Vinces bargain flies passed on!


Tom

[roycestearns]

However there is only one wing left on the fly and therefore only can fly in circles.

Excellent!!!

I have some Bergman flies that were samples in a letter he sent about an order. He tied them with only one wing so they couldn't be used!

Jay - thanks for the heads up.

Forgery - quite a bit of money involved in Art forgery

[roycestearns]

However there is only one wing left on the fly and therefore only can fly in circles.

Excellent!!!

I have some Bergman flies that were samples in a letter he sent about an order. He tied them with only one wing so they couldn't be used!

Jay - thanks for the heads up.

Forgery - quite a bit of money involved in Art forgery

Ted - speaking of less than perfect flies, I think you have an original Don Gapen Muddler? Not the ones that his son ties so perfectly!

[ted patlen]

yes

[bassman]

Kind of funny but I just had a thread on Collecting about authenticate rods. Seems like getting ripped off on a rod is less likely to happen if you do a little research and get some quality help. In the case of flies I just don't see anybody could authenticate a fly without provenance. I have original Gapen Muddlers I've used and if anything they are ones a person would probably accuse of being fakes. His were not carefully coiffed but rather ragged but sure fish well.

[ted patlen]

Kind of funny but I just had a thread on Collecting about authenticate rods. Seems like getting ripped off on a rod is less likely to happen if you do a little research and get some quality help. In the case of flies I just don't see anybody could authenticate a fly without provenance. I have original Gapen Muddlers I've used and if anything they are ones a person would probably accuse of being fakes. His were not carefully coiffed but rather ragged but sure fish well.

ABSOLUTELY !

[DrLogik]

The late Fran Betters is another good example. The last time I was in his shop he had a mountain of Ausable Wulffs on his bench and was cranking one out every minute or so. Very scruffy flies. I brought them home and took them to my local TU meeting. My TU buddies were not that familiar with Fran but were not impressed with the flies.

A few of them looked like my first flies when I started tying as a young boy! I think you're right, bassman, without proper provenance it's almost impossible to tell.

[bearbutt]

The late Fran Betters is another good example. The last time I was in his shop he had a mountain of Ausable Wulffs on his bench and was cranking one out every minute or so. Very scruffy flies. I brought them home and took them to my local TU meeting. My TU buddies were not that familiar with Fran but were not impressed with the flies.
.

LOL--so true--one of my authenticity questions for Fran's flies is this: if it looks like the family cat coughed it up, Fran likely tied it. Like original Gapen muddlers, they are a mess but oh, what precisely proportionate messes they could be. Fran was super consistent--albeit, yes, messy and scruffy. There's a minimuddler in the chapter on Betters in Valla's "Founding Flies" that is very clearly not by Fran--it's way too clean.

Art forgery is where the serious money is. Much more fun too, hoodwinking big money and big institutions at the same time. One of my favorite incidents is when the Art Institute of Chicago got caught with a forged Gauguin:

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/arts/13gauguin.html

I'd love to see an exhibition of just forgeries. The world of mechanical watches has many forgeries too--Rolex! Omega!--and a lot of Frankenwatches also. And there are perfume knockoffs too--handbags...it goes on and on. It's not just nature that abhors a vacuum; the world of collectables does too.

bb

[Mike N]

Hi Guys, My wife and I just finished watching all the episodes of this show for the third time. Lotsa forgeries here. I've seen a couple reels used as props, but no tackle storyline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovejoy

Jay Edwards

Jay, I always enjoyed the Britishness of Lovejoy Mysteries. Ian McShane was brilliant. Thanks for reminding me.

Mike N.