Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

A place to discuss the collecting and tying of classic flies, the tyers who made them famous, the tools, materials and techniques they used as well as the waters they were designed for. While classic is generally used to describe old things, classic is also used in the sense of first class or in the highest form. Therefore a fully dressed Salmon Fly, or a Carrie Stevens Streamer are just as much classics as a Chernobyl Ant would be. Enjoy the forum.

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ibookje
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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#21

Post by ibookje »

The work Tom has done is fabulous yes. But this engineering made larger hackles sizes (size 8-12) more difficult to find on a cape. The ones you do find have very thick stems and much lower barb count.

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mer
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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#22

Post by mer »

ibookje wrote:
06/24/20 04:39
The work Tom has done is fabulous yes. But this engineering made larger hackles sizes (size 8-12) more difficult to find on a cape. The ones you do find have very thick stems and much lower barb count.
Tradeoffs. That's why it's good to have multiple lines and multiple sources. Each one has it's purpose.

If you go to the Whiting Farms website, they have a picture that has grizzly saddles from "the beginning" to where they are now, with the number of flies you can tie from one.

The size difference is amazing, the counts are amazing. The understanding of the biology and patience to see it through are incredible. That goes for any of the "hackle growers".

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Eric Peper
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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#23

Post by Eric Peper »

Interesting points here. I bought an "original" Andy Miner light dun cape in Minneapolis in the late 70s/early 80s that I would have paid any price for (but it was quite reasonable). It was the size of a dinner plate with feathers that would tie down to 22,. It's stunning feature (and the very desirable feature I find lacking in the necks we have available now) was the spade hackle. These were long and densely fibered feathers that could have been used for size 4 dry flies and tailing fibers that were stiff and long enough for any size dry you could imagine. I still have a few of these feathers left some 40-odd years later, and I treasure them. Has anyone seen anything like this lately?

Eric
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Al McClane in his Introduction to The Practical Fly Fisherman . . . often erroneously attributed to Arnold Gingrich

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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#24

Post by narcodog »

i was told by a close associate of Whiting's that Tom looks at three parts of a feather. The base,fluff, the middle and the tip. So you can see how he can get long feathers. Saying that last night I was tying some flies with his Darbee necks which he has "fooled" with over the years. I asked some folks that are familiar with Darbee's necks about length and webbing and barb density. From what I was told Darbee's feathers were shorter, had a fair amount of web and barb count was low, compared to today's feathers. Whiting has "improved" the Darbee line to where it's not close to what Darbee had. What I'm expecting is that Whiting has not "fooled" with the colors, I don't know that. At $45.00 for a cape I find them reasonably priced.

Saying all of that, I find with the "newer" Darbee necks the feathers are to long because there is quite a bit of waste when tying a size 12 or 14 dry fly.
I don't tye with saddles for dry flies very often because to not waste the length of a feather I have to tye to many flies, which I don't normally need.

When tying with a Collins neck I don't get that waste, his sweet spot is more what I look for in a feather.

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mer
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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#25

Post by mer »

Eric, I think the new Whiting Tailing packs are very similar to spade hackles. Maybe off a different bird (Coq de Leon) but as for old fashioned spade hackles, I haven't seen them in a while or very few on a neck. Perhaps they get trimmed off or they just aren't the same shape anymore.

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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#26

Post by Perry Palin »

I don't buy hackles unless I can handle the feathers first. I know this is impossible for some tiers. In the past some necks were graded improperly, in my opinion, and a person could get a poorer or better neck than what was ordered. This has been largely corrected in current times, as least for hackle size and quality, but I still want to see the colors before I buy.

After mentioning this several times over the years, I don't really expect others to adopt my strange ways, but I have bought chickens from farmers with satisfactory results. This is especially true when buying hen or soft rooster hackle for wets. But to the point of our lost large dry fly hackle, I once bought two big chinchilla (cream with light gray barring) roosters (I think the price was $4 per bird) with outstanding dry fly hackle from size 12 to 4 -- web free and stiff.

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Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#27

Post by ibookje »

Some stores grade (hackle sizes) the cape and saddle so you don’t get disappointed.
Jim Slattey and Fly Fish Food is such a store

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mer
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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#28

Post by mer »

A also like seeing the colors first hand. I only tie for myself and fun, but I still like to look. Lay out 3 or 4 "dun" capes and one will catch my eye.
I'm not going to go around raising chickens (too many foxes and bears around)

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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#29

Post by WiFlyFisher »

Eric Peper wrote:
06/24/20 08:58
Interesting points here. I bought an "original" Andy Miner light dun cape in Minneapolis in the late 70s/early 80s that I would have paid any price for (but it was quite reasonable). It was the size of a dinner plate with feathers that would tie down to 22,. It's stunning feature (and the very desirable feature I find lacking in the necks we have available now) was the spade hackle. These were long and densely fibered feathers that could have been used for size 4 dry flies and tailing fibers that were stiff and long enough for any size dry you could imagine. I still have a few of these feathers left some 40-odd years later, and I treasure them. Has anyone seen anything like this lately?

Eric
I think I remember that Miner cape. :-)

Two or three years ago i got a couple Whiting Farms Euro rooster capes from Jim Slattery that are very large and cover a wide range of feather sizes, but no spade feathers.

Image

Also, the High & Dry rooster capes I have seem to be a cross between Red Label and Hebert Miner.

John

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mer
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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#30

Post by mer »

I'm wondering if the lack of spade feathers is simply how the skins are cut. It could be a matter of half an inch in the right spot, but then something else is getting "ruined".
I hope that by now we've collectively answered the original question; because these kinds of discussions I find fascinating.

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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#31

Post by ted patlen »

for big flies like variants and tailing the old "Indian" necks are still good. you may need to go through some to find suitable feathers but they still can be found...sometimes 3-4 hackles are used, a lesson in old time tying :)

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mer
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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#32

Post by mer »

ted patlen wrote:
06/24/20 13:27
for big flies like variants and tailing the old "Indian" necks are still good. you may need to go through some to find suitable feathers but they still can be found...sometimes 3-4 hackles are used, a lesson in old time tying :)
Exactly. I have a lot of books (because why not?) and the older ones often say 2 or 3 feathers for size 14.
Then a Dick Talleur book goes through a modern cape and saddle and counts sizes and number of feathers. Also pictures of modern cape using 1 feather, the best is a modern saddle and seeing how many flies it would tie. He actually tied it in, wrapped the number of turns needed to get the desired barb density, tied it off and actually cut the feather to start the next fly. Don't recall exactly how many but it was close to a dozen flies, size 14 out of a single saddle feather.

I often wonder what Rube Cross would say if you went back in time and handed him a couple saddles and capes from today.

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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#33

Post by narcodog »

mer wrote:
06/24/20 11:47
I'm wondering if the lack of spade feathers is simply how the skins are cut. It could be a matter of half an inch in the right spot, but then something else is getting "ruined".
I hope that by now we've collectively answered the original question; because these kinds of discussions I find fascinating.

The spade hackles aren't there because they have, one bred the big feathers out of them and two they don't grow them as long before harvesting.

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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#34

Post by narcodog »

mer wrote:
06/24/20 09:18
Eric, I think the new Whiting Tailing packs are very similar to spade hackles. Maybe off a different bird (Coq de Leon) but as for old fashioned spade hackles, I haven't seen them in a while or very few on a neck. Perhaps they get trimmed off or they just aren't the same shape anymore.
Just last night as I was tying I was using some of Whitings tailing packs and I'll tell you the feathers are too soft. I dug out my Collins tailing materials.

I have some Coq DeLeon fro Spain and they are a much better feather than what Whiting sells.

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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#35

Post by Eric Peper »

[/quote]
Just last night as I was tying I was using some of Whitings tailing packs and I'll tell you the feathers are too soft. I dug out my Collins tailing materials.

I have some Coq DeLeon fro Spain and they are a much better feather than what Whiting sells.
[/quote]

Could not agree more emphatically with your observations on the Whiting tailing packs narco. As to the CdL fibers, yes, they are better, but they, too, pale in comparison to the Miner saddles I mentioned above. In fact, this thread got me back to the bench to make sure that Miner neck was in the stuff I'm taking to the cabin next week. :)

Eric
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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#36

Post by WiFlyFisher »

ted patlen wrote:
06/24/20 13:27
for big flies like variants and tailing the old "Indian" necks are still good. you may need to go through some to find suitable feathers but they still can be found...sometimes 3-4 hackles are used, a lesson in old time tying :)
Ted,

I have done that and later on I decided to cut barbules off as needed for larger dry fly tails. I struggle with it, variants of tails. :)

I had a friend send me several nicely tied, silver dollar size spiders and I am real tempted to use them for dry fly tails.

John

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Re: Sorry if this is going over old ground. Capes...

#37

Post by ibookje »

I’m also not convinced about the whiting tailing packs. Some colors/bags seems to be okay while others are either curved, not stiff enough or both. Consistency seems to be an issue here.

narcodog wrote: Just last night as I was tying I was using some of Whitings tailing packs and I'll tell you the feathers are too soft. I dug out my Collins tailing materials.

I have some Coq DeLeon fro Spain and they are a much better feather than what Whiting sells.

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