Chadwick 477 Sub / Killer Bug & Crane Fly Larva Wool

[gmflyfish]

I still have plenty of yard - I keep getting PM's asking about availability. I made a mistake in ordering and got 6 skeins not six cards. And it does work on the Missouri sight fishing for rainbows in your wake.

Gregg

[flyfishermann1955]

I don't have any of the original Chadwick's 477, but here are pictures of the 3 substitute yarns mentioned in this post (from L to R):

Sirdar #477
Jamieson's Shetland Spindrift Oyster #290
Patton's #00229



Now some closer pictures (1 yarn at a time):

The Sirdar:



The Jamieson's:



The Patton's:



I tied 3 different versions of the Killer Bug. From L to R, the "Sawyer version" with no thread and wire at the hook bend with the Sirdar yarn, with just a thread head using the Jamieson's yarn, and finally the beadhead (joaniebo) version with a thread "hot spot" too using the Patton's yarn.



The Sirdar yarn is the most uniform in color and probably closest to the Chadwick's, based on an earlier picture. The Jamieson's has the most color variation with green and pink. The Patton's is somewhere between the other two. It is also the thickest and you can remove 1 of the strands of yarn to reduce the thickness. Thanks to Gregg and Dave who shared their Sirdar and Patton's yarn and to Bob for the pictures he sent of some flies he tied.

I've already had success fishing this pattern and look forward to experimenting more.

Thanks- Ken

[DrLogik]

The key is, what do each of them look like when wet? 477 when dry doesn't look all that impressive. It's when it gets wet that it takes on a whole different dimension. None of the subs I have (two) look like 477 when wet. The real stuff looks like food when wet (in a previous post I think I called it "meaty"), the subs just look like an artifical fly.

[flyfishermann1955]

Here is the Sirdar #477 yarn when it's wet. It looked "real" to this fish and another nice Rainbow too.



Thanks- Ken

[Mataura mayfly]

Looks a wee bit like a lump of Didymo hanging off that fishes jaw. Funny what trout see as food. I would never think of using a grub like that over here as I cannot think of a natural it may match, subsequently I have not bothered much with 477 nor a sub.
I may have to do a re-think on that!

[WiFlyFisher]

Video of Oliver Edwards ties Frank Sawyer's Killer Bug

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=436965266409766

Definitely a great fly, yet so simple.

[joaniebo]

John

Years ago, I got the Oliver Edwards VHS video on Sawyer's Killer Bug and PT nymph. That's what got me interested in the KB and where / how I learned to tie them ...via OE.

Bob

[Rolf Jacobsen]

I still have plenty of yard - I keep getting PM's asking about availability. I made a mistake in ordering and got 6 skeins not six cards. And it does work on the Missouri sight fishing for rainbows in your wake.

Gregg

Gregg if the offer still stands, I've sent to an envelope.

Thanks,
Rolf

[ablecane]

Just another wrap version..........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt61pj90nU8

[redband02]

Gregg:

Got the yarn in the mail. Thanks. Tied up some killer bugs and caught a trout on Rock Creek with it yesterday. Only 5 trout for the day, mostly on streamers near Stoney Creek.

Thanks again

Tom

[Yardbent]

just to open 'another' can of worms.........

1.. digital cameras can be influenced as you all know by the background
Greggs Sirdar 477 thread on a Chadwick card [by ablecane]


then another pic of Chadwicks

.
.
i wasn't too convinced by the Sidar477-Jamiesons 290- Paton pic [by flyfisherman1955]

.
the Jamiesons 290 appears too pink on their website

.
.----------------------------------------------------------------------

so i contacted Jamieson's of Shetland, and submitted the above pics - trust that was ok

Lizzie has just replied stating
''We have had several people ordering yarn for fly tieing, and the most popular colour in this regard is 290 Oyster, which now I see your picture, is not really the same colour as the Chadwick’s. I would put it more at 195 Moorland from the look of the photo.''
here tis...........................


a bit dark.? ..............the quest continues.......... ........john

EDIT
I'll order some and comment on my findings.

[TomWaits]

John, I am very interested to see your results. As I stated some months earlier I am haunted by this fly. Over the summer, I spent quite a bit of time trying to duplicate the original, pinkish, grayish, fawninsh color of the original from pictures on the internet. Even bought and read Frank Sawyer's book on nymphs for his unique tying instructions. This is a pic of best sample I was able to generate. The base material is a 75% wool/25% poly blend darning yarn with the resulting died tying material and a sample of the killer bug nymph when wet. From what I have understood, the wet version is the most improtant element. The fly in the pic has a color something like a rare steak ( a mix of pink, gray and brown) and was responsible for probably one third of the fish I caught after working up the die lot.

This is a great subject and has been an interesting journey.
Tom

[catskilljohn64]

You nailed it Tom, nailed it good! That is a fantastic sub, best I have seen. Good work man, CJ

[joaniebo]

It's interesting that there are quite a few variations of the Killer Bug being tied, not counting the difference in the yarn being used.

In Frank Sawyer's book "Nymphs and the Trout", on page 60, he explains:

"To make this bug, grip the hook firmly in the vice and then give the hook a double even covering of the wire, color of this not important but normally we now use red. This can be much heavier wire than used in the construction of the nymphs. When the double covering has been done leave the wire dangling at hook bend. Then start at the eye end of the hook and lap in securely a length of wool. The color and the texture of this is important. I call it wool, but actually it is a mixture of wool and nylon, produced and carded for mending purposes. The manufacturers of this product give their name as Chadwicks and they list the color as being 477. Actually it is a natural and not very easy to obtain. However this is by the way. After locking in the end of the wool, give an even winding to the hook bend, back to the eye, and then once more to the hook bend, so that in fact the base is covered with a triple layer. Then, holding the wool tightly, use the wire to tie it in securely at the hook bend with about four turns. Then cut off both wool and wire neatly."

Again, not including the make or color of the yarn, in several of the videos and / or articles that I've seen, the "Killer Bug" is often tied with a thin copper colored wire like often used in tying a Pheasant Tail nymph; some use only one wire layer that started at the hook eye and then wound back to the bend; some use only 2 layers of the yarn (bend to eye back to bend); and some do not wrap the wire or the wool "to the hook bend".

In Oliver Edwards' video "Search & Sight Fishing", he (Oliver Edwards) ties a Sawyer Killer Bug in what appears to be the exact way mentioned in "Nymphs and the Trout" using both the Chadwicks 477 yarn and a heavier red copper wire. Personally, I believe this video is a "must see" for anyone who wants to duplicate this nymph as colosely as possible.

Lastly, I've tied variations of the Killer Bug using different yarns and wires and one thing I firmly believe is that the use of a thick, red copper wire is very important in getting a color "bleed" through whatever yarn is being used. I've even wound red nylon thread over the red copper wire to make an even heavy probabilty of a red bleed-through.

I've also used a gold bead and red or pink thread (finished behind the bead) to make other "Sawyer Killer Bug" or "Utah Killer Bug" variations.

[DrLogik]

Bob,

Lastly, I've tied variations of the Killer Bug using different yarns and wires and one thing I firmly believe is that the use of a thick, red copper wire is very important in getting a color "bleed" through whatever yarn is being used. I've even wound red nylon thread over the red copper wire to make an even heavy probability of a red bleed-through.

I think you are spot on. The one thing that a lot of people ignore is the UV signature of the material. Patterns come and go over the years. The old ones that are still around that call for certain natural materials evolved over time...for a reason. The classic Hendrickson dry for instance calls for "urine burned female fox fur". Yes there are a bunch of synthetic subs for this look to human eyes as a dead-on match. Get it wet and look at it through a trout's eyes and it may look totally different than an authentic Hendrickson.

That Chadwick's 477 yarn has a unique UV signature that is not easily replicated. Call it dumb luck, call it whatever you want, but the real 477 when wet and in the water looks different than any sub I've ever seen. And, I think the trout see that difference to. They don't differentiate between real 477 and the sub, they see the real 477 and it looks like food. Maybe they see the subs as looking not so much so.

Maybe that reddish copper wire does serve a distinct purpose. Accidental or not, that wire seems to work. Oh, and the same can be said for Sawyers genuine Pheasant tail. I can state with personal experience that I have caught more fish with a traditional (read genuine tied) Pheasant Tail than any other modern pattern of that same fly that calls for thread as the wrapping material.

There's a guy out there that has a couple of videos on what the trout sees. Has a funny Polish name, can't think of it right now. I watched both of his videos and his premise makes perfect sense. What looks right to us may not look right to a trout.

Ahhhhh...the mystique of the real Killer Bug yarn....it will never end......

Don't get me started on Orange 6b....... ROFL!!!

[Yardbent]

John, I am very interested to see your results. ..........................
This is a great subject and has been an interesting journey...Tom

Tom..........PM me your full name/address and i'll post a few yards when received from Jamiesons

john

[rsagebrush]

All I know is the Killer Bug tied with any of those materials shown is a very effective fly on both Spring Creeks and Freestones for me; I could use it as my one fly. On a lot I add a soft hackle collar which works very well too. The copper wire, I prefer Red or Copper really sinks the fly well; when I put the soft hackle collar on them I use thread.

[narcodog]

All this talk about 477 and subs has gotten me to acquiesce. I'm going to tye a couple of KB's with my limited supply of 477. So far it's just been used to show folks what the stuff really looks like.
I am interested in the Jamison mentioned and I'll have to try some of that also.

[Paul B]

All,

I have tied killer bugs for more decades than I would like to remember and have used the original Chadwicks wool and almost any another wool tied in the same pattern and they have ALL caught fish. my experience is as long as the colour/shade is approximate to the original then your pattern will catch.

Paul B

[Yardbent]

.....................I am interested in the Jamison mentioned and I'll have to try some of that also.

if you are talking about the Moorland 195

....PM me your full name/address and i'll post a few yards when received from Jamiesons