Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

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BGreer
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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#41

Post by BGreer »

FWIW, any wire that is taken from an electrical device that has a coil (like a motor, transformer, or relay) will have some sort of insulating coating on the wire. That keeps the turns of wires from shorting to each other. That insulating coating can be just about any sort of color. I've seen all sorts of electrical devices of all ages and I've seen all sorts of colors from almost clear, to reds, greens, browns, black, etc.

That being said, and much more importantly: Thank you Phil for your diligent work on your quest to find a suitable replacement for the #477. By your pictures, it looks closer than any I have seen. Excellent work!

Brian

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#42

Post by 64Emmons »

BGreer is dead on. For decades I have seen arguments about the color of the wool, an rarely do I see anyone get the color of the wire right, and NEVER the size.

It is readily available if your look. Don't look in a fly shop. You won.t find Formvar enamel and you won't find anything this fine.

It is cute how so many chase after the exact wool, but they fall flat with their wire. Bad wire mades for clownish PTs, most often. But let's face it. Fish can be fooled by anything, just like a girl living at a truck stop.

But if you want to be devotedly mushy gushy over Mr Sawyer's patterns, and yes, I called him Mr Sawyer when I saw him, use 0.0040 FORMVAR. I show 0.0042 below because that is what I regularly use on most vintage Fender guitar pickups and also what Sawyer had used o flies we ordered in the late 1960s.

Thank Lindy Fralin and Seymour Duncan for identifying the wire coatings. Remember, these guys are rewinding pickups on guitars worth $400,000. They need to know which wire to use. The choices are out there, easy. Just not easy in a fly shop.

Image
Last edited by 64Emmons on 04/04/15 10:45, edited 1 time in total.
Chris

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#43

Post by bearbutt »

64Emmons wrote:
But if you want to be devotedly mushy gushy over Mr Sawyer's patterns, and yes, I called him Mr Sawyer when I saw him, use 0.040 FORMVAR. I show 0.042 below because that is what I regularly use on most vintage Fender guitar pickups and also what Sawyer had used o flies we ordered in the late 1960s.
Do you mean .0040 Formvar and .0042? .040 seems way too heavy.

bb

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#44

Post by bvandeuson »

Did Sawyer really use wire that big? .040 is wire gauge 18 which is seems pretty fat, almost the same as a hook shank.

BB

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#45

Post by BGreer »

Yeah, the wire on the spool in the picture is considerably smaller than that.
64Emmons mentioned windings on guitar pickups.
Perhaps he omitted a zero in a significant place or meant 42 gauge, which would fall into place for what is used for higher resistance, lower power coils.

I agree, 0.040 is more like the hook shank diameter.

However, I did order a skein of Phil's new find, the Berroco 1214. I'm actually pretty excited to get it to try it out as I have a week and a half fishing trip/honeymoon coming up later this month.

I am also a little interested to see if the dye lots vary in color(s) much. Phil mentioned that there was some difference in the dye lots he had personally seen.

Brian

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#46

Post by bvandeuson »

I picked up a skein yesterday at one of the local yarn shops, same dye lot as what Phil tested and everything.

BB

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#47

Post by rsagebrush »

Thanks for the detailed research; I snapped up a skein in the same dye lot.

I can hardly wait to tie some up.

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#48

Post by joaniebo »

Here's a scanned copy of the page from Frank Sawyer's book: "Nymphs & The Trout" describing how to tie his Killer Bug and it also mentions the use of a red wire that is heavier than used in tying his nymphs (presumably), his Pheasant Tail nymphs:

Image

In addition, here's a link showing Olver Edwards tying Frank Sawyer's Killer Bug and as far as I can tell, Oliver Edwards ties the Killer Bug exactly as stated in "Nymphs & The Trout.":

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=436965266409766

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#49

Post by 64Emmons »

bearbutt wrote:
64Emmons wrote:
But if you want to be devotedly mushy gushy over Mr Sawyer's patterns, and yes, I called him Mr Sawyer when I saw him, use 0.040 FORMVAR. I show 0.042 below because that is what I regularly use on most vintage Fender guitar pickups and also what Sawyer had used o flies we ordered in the late 1960s.
Do you mean .0040 Formvar and .0042? .040 seems way too heavy.

bb
You are absolutely right. I made a mistake. I had originally written my post with wire size written in gauge, so 38ga, 40 ga 42 and 43ga. Then changed to decimals thinking that if someone found wire on a used armature, it would not likely be labeled, so gauge is a useless reference. I did not add the necessary zero. I will fix post.
Chris

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#50

Post by TomWaits »

Here are a couple of pics of my wire stash. Easy to see that none of it came from a fly shop. The fine wire measures .003 in as you can see. That is the wire that I use for PT's.
ImageImage
The color wire used for Sawyer style Pheasant Tails is critical to what he calls the translucency of the body. The red wire for PT's and gold color for the Gray Goose. The color wire for the Killer Bugs is not critical. However, the color of the wet yarn is the all important factor there. In his earlier book "Keeper of the Stream" Sawyer states that his early KB was tied with silver fuse wire and later in "Nymphs and the Trout", he says that they settled on the red colored wire as noted in the page from his book that Bob just posted. Also, in the earlier book, he describes the yarn to look for as wool yarn for darning. Then goes on to state that it is actually a wool/nylon blend in a "fawn background with a definite pink tinge. This when wet, turns to a color that is very much like a shrimp". In his later book, he gives the name and color (Chadwick's 477) and also suggest that the wire size and color had been standardized. Perhaps due to the fact that he was selling his fly's at that time??
Glad to see that the Oliver Edwards video is still up on the Partridge Facebook page. The color of the wet KB that he holds in his hand is what I tried to reproduce when dying the darning yarn I used for my substitute. I have caught a lot of fish with it. It quick and easy to tie, it works and its cheap. When you can loose flies as fast as I can, the cheap part gets really attractive.
Tom

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#51

Post by creakycane »

The Frank Sawyer tied Pheasant tails I have (circa 1973) use very fine copper wire (approx 40 +/- guage, as 64 Emmons implied) and the same era Killer bugs use a bit thicker red wire.

The Mrs Sawyer-tied Pheasant tails and KB's I have (circa 1989) seem to have utilized the same types of wire on each. The most noticable difference is the KB yarn seems slightly different colored - more tan - compared to the pinker yarn from earlier examples.

I have not seen brown enamelled wire used on any PT or KB originals from the Sawyer family, only what seems to be clear or amber enameled on some, red on others.

I'm much more concerned with very important matters, like getting the right shade of urine burned fox dubbing for my Hendricksons than yarn and wire types. My guess is that we have all given this a bit more thought than the Sawyer's had, and that is a good legacy for them to leave!
Last edited by creakycane on 04/04/15 11:49, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#53

Post by PhilA »

I'll add a few observations relevant to Killer Bug wire...

Regarding wire sizes, it is important not to confuse wire diameter in mils (thousandths of an inch) with wire gauge numbers. The American Wire Gauge (AWG) system specifies wire diameter for each gauge size. Diameter and gauge are not the same. For example, wire that is AWG38 (38 gauge) is specified to be 0.00397" in diameter (which rounds to 0.004" or 4/1,000").

Here is a part of a much larger table of AWG gauges and wire diameters:
Image


The red wire that I use for tying Killer Bugs is "Midge Wire" purchased at Blue Ribbon Flies (BRF) in West Yellowstone, MT over a decade ago. It is still listed in the current catalog and available in several colors. BRF Midge Wire is spooled onto small, metal, sewing machine bobbins. Here is a photo from the current BRF catalog:
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And here is a spool as I use it for fly tying:
Image

I use the wire frequently, keep it on a tying bobbin, and often tie with it much like thread. (For Killer Bugs, for example)

I just measured my own collection of copper fly tying wires with a caliper style micrometer that is accurate to 0.0001" (1/10,000"). Two different spools of BRF Midge Wire (red and olive) purchased years ago measure exactly 0.0040" (AWG38). (That is the same size as 7X tippet material.) I don't know if the current stock of BRF Midge Wire is the same diameter as over a decade ago, but I hope it is, as I'm on my last spool of red.

For comparison, Wapsi X-Small Ultra Wire is slightly larger than the 0.0040" BRF Midge Wire. [Note: In my post above, I identified the wire I use as Wapsi X-Small, but that is incorrect. I thought the two wires (BRF Midge and Wapsi X-Small) were identical, but they aren't.] I just measured five different colors of Wapsi X-Small, and the average is 0.0047". Wapsi Small Ultra Wire measures 0.0070" (three colors averaged), and Wapsi Brassie Ultra Wire measures 0.0086" (one sample).

Years ago (before I found the BRF Midge Wire), I purchased a spool of red AWG41 wire, which is 0.0028" in diameter (confirmed with my micrometer). My thinking was "the smaller the better" for building underbodies. That didn't work out well, because the wire breaks WAY too easily to be usable.

Hope this helps...

PhilA
Last edited by PhilA on 04/04/15 18:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#54

Post by creakycane »

Thanks for the bits on wire.

I have lots of spools of wire, but the one I use the most is from a spool of red 34 Guage wire that I pilfered from a stockpile at work - a spool the size of a hockey puck that I will never use up - it's plenty fine for most nymphs, and the few wires I have that are thinner seem to break too often to be worth the trouble.

I use the red 34AWG for both PT's and KB's and, to date, have not had any trout complain. I rather like the look of the dark red with the PT fibers.

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#55

Post by bearbutt »

For insight, expertise, and the willingness to share arcane information, this thread is one of the best I have read in years on the Boards. It's like, Killer Bugs A-Z. Many thanks to Phil for starting the thread, and to others who have brought additional information to fill us in on various compelling details--especially about the wire.

bb

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#56

Post by 64Emmons »

ImageImage

Here are some photos of the magnet wire I use for making guitar pickups. The darker of the two is Formvar and plain enamel usually looks the same. The brighter is a poly insulation. All copper wire used for winding coils is insulated with something, and the colors are unlimited for the newer poly coatings.
You can buy the wire new from places like Whitmor/Wirenetics or find several pound spools on ebay.
As stated above, you want something in the 38 or 40 gauge range plain enamel or Formvar (the var is varnish) for authentic PT nymphs.

Where do you find a one pound spool of 0.0040" gold wire?
Chris

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#57

Post by 64Emmons »

ImageImage

My Sawyer tying kit is an Altoids tin.

Inside you can fit a piece of pheasant tail, a hank of Killer Bug yarn (I have the old Veniard fake stuff, not the nice stuff shown above in this post) a pill tin with some hooks, a tiny pair of scissors, a Veniard hand vise and an old oblong Dai Riki tippet spool loaded with copper wire. I also have a sewing machine bobbin with brighter copper wire.

The hand vise fits very snugly so it does not rattle around.

If there is one fly meant to be tied on a hand vise, it is a PT nymph.
Chris

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#58

Post by PhilA »

64Emmons,
Two thumbs up ... WAY up ... for the traveling Sawyer tying kit in an Altoids tin.

Image

Might I be allowed to contribute some Killer Bug substitute yarn to its contents? I would need your mailing address. --PhilA

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#59

Post by bearbutt »

64Emmons wrote: My Sawyer tying kit is an Altoids tin.
This is terrific, and as small as small can be when it comes to tying kits.

Without wanting to digress to much from the thread, you bring up a good point about how we compose, in an individually meaningful way,a tying kit for a particular kind of trip, where the circumstances of the location and water define an array of possibilities--there's only so much material one can bring!

Not long ago I picked up something interesting at an angling auction: Datus Proper's travel fly tying kit. His book "What the Trout Said" is pretty good--he talks a lot about various issues related to fly design, and also talks a lot about hooks--complains most are inconsistently sized. Proper believed every fisherman should tie. And he also believed that one should tie often, even when traveling on fishing trips. "In earlier centuries, every competent fisherman carried his 'book' of silk, feathers, hooks, and scraps of dubbing," Proper wrote in "What the Trout Said." Such a book need not be large, he explained. His own kit, he said, "measures only six inches long by four inches high by two-and-on-half-inches thick, fully stuffed. It is very well made of pigskin. It has a box for tools and thread, six envelopes for other materials, an end pocket in the actual pigskin, two parchment envelopes (with six pockets in each) which I sewed up myself for dubbing, and a sturdy strap around the whole thing. The kit carries the old American 'Common sense' label."

I have to say I was surprised when I bought the little pigskin wallet, as I had not realized it was the actual one he wrote about.

Datus Proper fly tying kit: It's small, as he said:

Image

It has the homemade dubbing pockets he sewed using parchment:

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The sleeves are filled with small bits of fur, hackle, and feathers--even a square inch of polar bear:

Image


And some of the hook packets are cool, Veniard hooks!--which leads to the question--the lingering question--about what hook Sawyer was using for his KBs? Any thoughts about this?

Image

bb
Last edited by bearbutt on 12/13/21 15:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#60

Post by PhilA »

bearbutt wrote:Datus Proper's travel fly tying kit. His book "What the Trout Said" is pretty good ...
BB, great find on the Datus Proper tying kit! His book What the Trout Said is the best fly tying and fly design book that I know of, and it doesn't contain a single pattern or describe any tying methods. It is about fly design, and the behaviors of insects, trout, and anglers that make a difference. The book is full of insight and clarity.

A career member of the US Foreign Service, Proper was an experimentalist with an inquisitive nature and a keen appreciation for details. He systematically varied the design of flies, tested their effectiveness relative to each other, and deduced principles of fly design and angling that are timeless.

Proper died far too young over a decade ago at age 69 on Hyalite Creek, which flows from the Gallatin mountains south of Bozeman, MT. He slipped on a rock and hit his head while fishing.

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