Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

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PhilA
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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#21

Post by PhilA »

joaniebo wrote:Phil
What I also neglected to directly mention in my previous post that although finding a card of Chadwicks' 477 yarn might be the Holy Grail for fly tying the Sawyer Killer Bug nymphs, it would be interesting to learn exactly when Chadwicks stopped making the 477 yarn?
Bob,
I don't know what the Sawyer substitute yarn was. I looked through my notes, and the date of 1965 for when Chadwick's ceased production of #477 comes from ... ahem ... Wikipedia:

"Sawyer developed the Killer Bug as a means of controlling greyling numbers on the River Avon where at the time it was considered vermin. The Killer Bug is designed to imitate the freshwater shrimp but also looks similar to a hatching sedge. The Killer Bug was named by Sawyer's friend Lee Wulff. It is tied with large amounts of copper wire and light beige wool. Originally the Killer Bug was tied with a wool called Chadwick's 477. When production of this wool ceased in 1965 Sawyer switched to a specially produced copy. In fly fishing circles the original Chadwick's 477 wool is considered to have mythical fish-catching properties with lengths of the wool selling for hundreds of pounds."

Wikipedia is not exactly the most authoritative reference in the world, but the Sawyer biography was entered into Wikipedia in 2010 by "Nicktsawyer", who I assume is Frank Sawyer's grandson Nick. I don't have a copy of Nick Sawyer's 2006 book Frank Sawyer's Nymphing Secrets, but the date probably comes from him. Sounds pretty reliable to me.

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#22

Post by bvandeuson »

PhilA wrote:
thegubster wrote:Guessing your circling and nearing a final pass 'bout now. Got those landing wheels down yet? Hope you have a wonderful season. You simply won't believe what it's like...
Jeremy.
Jeremy, the flaps are extended, but the wheels aren't down yet. Another year, maybe two.

bvandeuson wrote:Phil, one more step in your research...how do they compare when wet? Is the Chadwick's also Alpaca, or a different wool? Different wools and hairs can have very different wet characteristics. The original Killer Bug was known for it's translucent quality when wet.
BB
BB, in the middle of my post above are photos of both wet and dry versions of Chadwick's-tied and UAF1214-tied Killer Bugs. When wet, both might be described as "rare meat red". The red wire underbody seems to contribute quite a lot to that final color. Both yarns (by themselves) become much darker when wet, but they are not as red as in the final Killer Bugs. If true, then the thickness of yarn tied over the wire underbody is important. I tied the Killer Bugs above with two thin layers of yarn (yarn ply untwisted and laying flat).

I have no idea what kind of wool Chadwick's yarn is made from. It is a very fine (small fibered) yarn, but I've never seen an accounting of the wool content.

I fish a lot of nymphs and hope to give Killer Bugs plenty of stream time this year. I should be able to compare them to some of my favorite nymphs by fishing the two as a tandem pair.
Sorry Phil, I missed the wet pictures first time through. Good job.

BB

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#23

Post by gmflyfish »

Nick is the grandson and carries on the tying tradition of his grandfather and Mother. Bob and Pat

I just ordered the Yarn - Let me know and I will send you a few yards.

Gregg

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PhilA
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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#24

Post by PhilA »

gmflyfish wrote:Nick is the grandson and carries on the tying tradition of his grandfather and Mother. Bob and Pat
I just ordered the Yarn - Let me know and I will send you a few yards.
Gregg
Gregg,
By "ordered the yarn", do you mean yarn from Nick Sawyer? I would love to have a sample. I'll send you my mailing address via a board message. What is your address? I'll send you a sample of Berroco UAF1214 for comparison.

The web site http://www.sawyernymphs.com, which I thought was Nick's site, no longer seems to exist. Has it moved elsewhere?

--Phil

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#25

Post by SpringCreek »

Last I heard Nick was selling the Sawyer nymph business, or at least trying to. sawyernymphs.com was the website a couple of years ago.
Then as it was, then again it will be. Though the course may change sometimes, rivers always reach the sea. - Led Zeppelin, 10 Years Gone

http://www.splittingcane.com

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gmflyfish
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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#26

Post by gmflyfish »

No I bought the Berrcho

Gregg

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Almas far
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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#27

Post by Almas far »

Im sold by Phil's investigations. Ordered me the "correct yarn" from a knitting shop in Finland!

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#28

Post by bvandeuson »

I'll be picking up some of the Berroco tomorrow. Found some at one of our local yarn shops.

I might be interested in making up some 20yd cards for a very reasonable price if anyone doesn't want a whole skein.

BB

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#29

Post by alberta al »

I tried ordering the yarn today from a couple of spots in Saskatchewan and Alberta. When I said the color number and the specific dye lot, the ladies all said forget it. Can someone sell me a few yards when they get theirs?

Cheers,

Alan

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#30

Post by PhilA »

alberta al wrote:I tried ordering the yarn today from a couple of spots in Saskatchewan and Alberta. When I said the color number and the specific dye lot, the ladies all said forget it. Can someone sell me a few yards when they get theirs?

Cheers,

Alan
Alan,
Send me your mailing address via the forum's messaging system, and I'll gladly send you some of the Berroco yarn. Same color , same dye lot as my original post. --PhilA

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#31

Post by moucheur2003 »

Thanks for the tip, Phil! Looks promising. I had gotten interested in the Killer Bug earlier this winter through a discussion on another online forum and have tied some up in two shades of Patons (Natural Mix and Natural Heather) and several different shades of Jamieson's Spindrift. Just ordered some Berroco Steel Cut Oats now too! It will be interesting to compare how they all perform when the season arrives. The differences seem fairly subtle. What worked best on grayling in Wiltshire 60 years ago may not be the exact same thing that works best on trout in New England or Idaho today.

Unfortunately, I am now going to have to learn to knit to be able to use up all the surplus.

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Norm Frechette
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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#32

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#33

Post by ibookje »

Hope to find a shop in Europe to keep the shipping cost low. Anyone found one yet?

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PhilA
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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#34

Post by PhilA »

An update on the Killer Bug yarn...

Yesterday in southwest Wisconsin:
Image

Image

Image

A size #16 Killer Bug worked very well. I fished it in tandem with a couple of my favorite nymphs. It outfished one of them and was at least the equal of the other. I doubt that the color of the yarn is all-important, but the fly was quite effective.

The raw materials of trout ... limestone and ground water, about 50 degrees F. all year round:
Image
Last edited by PhilA on 04/03/15 15:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Norm Frechette
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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#35

Post by Norm Frechette »

phila

question : when you tie them do you use a single ply of yarn? do you untwist the yarn from a rope to a ribbon?

thanks in advance,

norm

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PhilA
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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#36

Post by PhilA »

Norm Frechette wrote:phila
question : when you tie them do you use a single ply of yarn? do you untwist the yarn from a rope to a ribbon?
thanks in advance,
norm
Norm,
"Yes" to both questions. I separate the 4-ply Berroco yarn and use only one ply for size #16 - #12 Killer Bugs. After lashing one ply of yarn over a red wire underbody, I then untwist the yarn to make it lay flat when wrapped. I then wrap two very thin layers of yarn over the underbody (up the hook shank to the eye, and then back to the hook bend, where it is secured with the final turns of wire). This must be done with a gentle hand, because the yarn doesn't have much strength (lengthwise) when it is untwisted. The wool fibers will pull apart quite easily if too much pressure is applied. The goal is for the red wire underbody to show through overlying yarn when wet. It gives the fly a "grayish red rare meat" color when wet. The third photo above shows this to some extent.

Authentic Chadwick's is not twisted as tightly as the Berroco yarn, and it has a softer, fuzzier surface. Therefore, before tying the fly as above, I pull one ply of the Berroco yarn lengthwise several times (in both directions) between my thumbnail pressed lightly against the fleshy part of my index finger. This pulls some of the fiber ends away from the surface of the not-yet-untwisted yarn rope, thereby creating a fuzzy appearance similar to Chadwick's.

Hope this helps (and is clear)...

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#37

Post by TomWaits »

Hi Phil,
I got the sub you sent and tied some size 16 KB and as a tribute to you, my best shot at some north country spiders using the sub as body material. May have to team these up see how it goes.

Image

Thanks for some great research and glad you and Henry had a good day fishing.
Tom

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#38

Post by moucheur2003 »

From what I have read, Frank Sawyer tied his original Killer Bugs with plain untreated copper wire he got from unwinding the rotors of smail electric motors. He also tied them on what would be the equivalent under today's standards of a #10 hook. I'm interested to see that they also work with red-tinted wire at size 16, and I wonder if that doesn't suggest that there is more opportunity for successful variation in both color and size than the fetish of trying to find the most precise imitation of Chadwicks 477 allows.

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#39

Post by PhilA »

TomWaits wrote:Hi Phil,
I got the sub you sent and tied some size 16 KB and as a tribute to you, my best shot at some north country spiders using the sub as body material. May have to team these up see how it goes.
Tom

Tom, I have no doubt that the spider version will be ... uhh ... a killer! "Tom's Killer Spider" sounds good to me.

Henry and I spoke in the car yesterday. We want to pick you up some morning in Hillsboro and take you fishing to that river you said you've never been to before. --Phil
Last edited by PhilA on 04/03/15 20:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chadwick's 477 -- a better substitute

#40

Post by PhilA »

moucheur2003 wrote:From what I have read, Frank Sawyer tied his original Killer Bugs with plain untreated copper wire he got from unwinding the rotors of smail electric motors. He also tied them on what would be the equivalent under today's standards of a #10 hook. I'm interested to see that they also work with red-tinted wire at size 16, and I wonder if that doesn't suggest that there is more opportunity for successful variation in both color and size than the fetish of trying to find the most precise imitation of Chadwicks 477 allows.
I think you are correct. Trout probably don't care as much about the color of Killer Bugs as do fly tyers. The search for a Chadwick's substitute is more about recreating history than making a better fly.

Sawyer wrote in Nymphs and the Trout (1958) about the wire for tying Killer Bugs: To make this bug, grip the hook firmly in the vice and then give the hook a double even covering of wire, colour of this not important but normally we now use red."

Killer Bug wire is also discussed by 64Emmons in this earlier thread: viewtopic.php?f=73&t=85088

If the exact color of the yarn is not essential, is the exact color of the wire? Probably not.

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