The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
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Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#41You know, I have fished with modern Hardy stuff for years (rods & reels) and it was (& is) just fine. I've never tried their bamboo before but I mostly love their shotguns, at least for upland work. We sold a few of the British bamboo rods over the years (at the shop I worked at) and I guess they never captured my imagination enough to try one.
- VanfromMaine
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Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#44Van:
Not at all surprised, M37s are great bird guns. I had a pre-WWII version for many years and was quite impressed. You know the story of the 37, right? Started as the M17 Remington (designed by John Browning). It would have been the Model 35 or 36 but Ithaca had to wait until some other (later) patents on it expired in 1937.
Not at all surprised, M37s are great bird guns. I had a pre-WWII version for many years and was quite impressed. You know the story of the 37, right? Started as the M17 Remington (designed by John Browning). It would have been the Model 35 or 36 but Ithaca had to wait until some other (later) patents on it expired in 1937.
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#45Been giving these two shootin’ irons a workout this summer, Savage Fox A Grade and a Rizzini BR550, both 20’s and both shoot awfully similar on the clays course so far. Fox will be primary grouse wand, the Rizzini a nice change of pace.
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#46Back around 1960, in a sporting goods store in central MA, I spotted an unusual looking gun in the rack behind the counter. I asked the salesman how much is that 12-gauge single, and after a quick look at the price tag, he informed me it was $180. I told him I'd take it, but not to look at the price tag again. Which, of course he did, so I didn't get the gun, which was an Ithica Single Barrel Trap. A gun with a long reputation as the best for its designed purpose, at least here in the colonies. Perhaps not the cachet of a London Best Gun, but especially in the higher grades, a very nice gun indeed.
I walked out with an entirely different gun, a 20-gauge Winchester 101.
I walked out with an entirely different gun, a 20-gauge Winchester 101.
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#50You guys with these classic doubles, english straight stocks, double triggers, are killin me. Green with envy. I keep looking for one that fits me (lefty)…..
Beautiful guns.
Beautiful guns.
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#51I made a tactical error on opening day of grouse here in Idaho, a couple weeks ago. I woke up before my pup (rarely ever happens), got her loaded up before sunrise, headed for the hills.
We were up high by sunrise. And the error, a huge one, was that I limited out, by 7:30am,and my pup, Pearl, was pissed. “That’s it!!?? We’re headed home now!?” she cried as we headed down.
I was back in town by 8:30 and had to run her for an hour at a local open area to burn off her jets. She raced around like she had JATO rockets strapped to her back. I will resist too many early birds from now on. Repeat, I will resist too many early birds.
We were up high by sunrise. And the error, a huge one, was that I limited out, by 7:30am,and my pup, Pearl, was pissed. “That’s it!!?? We’re headed home now!?” she cried as we headed down.
I was back in town by 8:30 and had to run her for an hour at a local open area to burn off her jets. She raced around like she had JATO rockets strapped to her back. I will resist too many early birds from now on. Repeat, I will resist too many early birds.
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#52Brooks: A good problem to have, eh? Those are Blues, right? (I'd say your stackbarrel looks & works just fine BTW.)
Left-handed guns are listed on Vintage Doubles regularly. Kirby Hoyt is the proprietor there and is a straight shooter (reportedly in every way). All the guns in my quiver these days are either neutral or "Southpaw" friendly. If you find something that "trips your trigger" so-to-speak, but that is "cast" the wrong way (cast-on is for lefties, cast-off is right-handed) most English guns can be hot-oil "bent" accordingly (& I can recommend just the gunsmith to do it). Cast can become less of an issue in the sub-gauges (because of the declining width of the stocks in the smaller-tubed guns).
https://www.vintagedoubles.com/catalog/
Left-handed guns are listed on Vintage Doubles regularly. Kirby Hoyt is the proprietor there and is a straight shooter (reportedly in every way). All the guns in my quiver these days are either neutral or "Southpaw" friendly. If you find something that "trips your trigger" so-to-speak, but that is "cast" the wrong way (cast-on is for lefties, cast-off is right-handed) most English guns can be hot-oil "bent" accordingly (& I can recommend just the gunsmith to do it). Cast can become less of an issue in the sub-gauges (because of the declining width of the stocks in the smaller-tubed guns).
https://www.vintagedoubles.com/catalog/
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#53Hi Lloyd, yes, blues. That’s about it around these parts, besides spruce grouse; and chukars and huns in the valleys and river canyons. And there are sharpies quite a ways east of here towards Island Park. Blues—sometimes you walk up towards them and when close yell “pull!” so they fly ;-)
They are delicious.
I’ll keep looking for a nice straight stock double; I really want a 16, but I’ve got to hold it first. I’ve had doubles that I tried to make fit that just didn’t, traded them.
Thanks and I may reach out re: recommended smiths if I find something close.
They are delicious.
I’ll keep looking for a nice straight stock double; I really want a 16, but I’ve got to hold it first. I’ve had doubles that I tried to make fit that just didn’t, traded them.
Thanks and I may reach out re: recommended smiths if I find something close.
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#54You likely already know this but good English doubles are about a dime a dozen anymore. The guns laws in England have driven many of them over here to the point where a nice 12-bore box lock extractor (BLE) is about $1,100-1,400 (classic American 12s are even cheaper, like $400-$600).
The difference between American and English guns is almost always weight. Our 12s weigh around 8lbs, theirs weigh about 6 1/2lbs. Our 16s weight 6 3/4 lbs, theirs weigh closer to 6 lbs. Another big difference is the manufacturing processes used, their guns are largely handmade, ours are almost stamped-out in a mass-production operation (with some hand-fitting on the earlier ones). The hand-fitting allows for better weight and balance (as does their proof laws, a complex subject we can go into later if needed). The English will measure you for a gun (LOP, drop, cast, etc.) but the American guns were always built to fit the "common" man (I guess I'm not very common because the American stuff never seemed to fit me very well, the exception to that is, of course, the 870). As an example, on Vintage Doubles today:
This one is even cheaper because it is a "non-ejector" and isn't fancy (plain wood, no engraving).
Look around a bit, read a few books on the subject (Good Guns Again by Steve Bodio is my favorite on this subject). There are several shops that specialize in the better shotguns (Hill Rod & Guns in Helena, Montana is one, but there are several others), 16s aren't nearly as common as the 12s, but they do surface from time to time (& feeding one is a bit more work). The 16-gauge website is another good resource for information and even has a "For Sale" section.
With the rate that Boomers are leaving the field now, lots of guns are coming onto the market as their kids don't know (and don't care) much about them. Persistence really pays here too.
The difference between American and English guns is almost always weight. Our 12s weigh around 8lbs, theirs weigh about 6 1/2lbs. Our 16s weight 6 3/4 lbs, theirs weigh closer to 6 lbs. Another big difference is the manufacturing processes used, their guns are largely handmade, ours are almost stamped-out in a mass-production operation (with some hand-fitting on the earlier ones). The hand-fitting allows for better weight and balance (as does their proof laws, a complex subject we can go into later if needed). The English will measure you for a gun (LOP, drop, cast, etc.) but the American guns were always built to fit the "common" man (I guess I'm not very common because the American stuff never seemed to fit me very well, the exception to that is, of course, the 870). As an example, on Vintage Doubles today:
This one is even cheaper because it is a "non-ejector" and isn't fancy (plain wood, no engraving).
Look around a bit, read a few books on the subject (Good Guns Again by Steve Bodio is my favorite on this subject). There are several shops that specialize in the better shotguns (Hill Rod & Guns in Helena, Montana is one, but there are several others), 16s aren't nearly as common as the 12s, but they do surface from time to time (& feeding one is a bit more work). The 16-gauge website is another good resource for information and even has a "For Sale" section.
With the rate that Boomers are leaving the field now, lots of guns are coming onto the market as their kids don't know (and don't care) much about them. Persistence really pays here too.
Last edited by lloyd3 on 09/21/24 11:49, edited 3 times in total.
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#55Thats great info, thanks!
Finding a source of decent priced 2 1/2” shells will of course be a challenge. Seems like a lot of those english 16’s shoot 2 1/2”.
Finding a source of decent priced 2 1/2” shells will of course be a challenge. Seems like a lot of those english 16’s shoot 2 1/2”.
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#56They aren't as cheap as the used to be, but I buy them by the flat from RST. All gauges and all sizes of shot are finally available again.
I tend to use about 1 to 2 boxes of shells a year when hunting (very hard). This isn't target shooting, after all, and these are "specialty" weapons really. They are long, light & lovely. Much like a fine bamboo rod...
I tend to use about 1 to 2 boxes of shells a year when hunting (very hard). This isn't target shooting, after all, and these are "specialty" weapons really. They are long, light & lovely. Much like a fine bamboo rod...
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#57Had some weather today, which blew us off of the lake (no fresh walleyes for dinner tonight). Where was I, oh yes....16s.
BTW: I indexed that wrist pin right-after I took this picture the other day.
This one is getting a little older (circa 1905) and is, in the scheme of things, fairly plain (w/somewhat planky wood & now well-worn checkering and engraving) when compared to some of the "bigger name" guns. Made by a "provincial" maker, and while still very-light (5lbs14), this one is actually in English proof for 2 3/4-inch American shells. I use the 2 1/2-inch stuff to further protect that thin, little, diamond-shaped wrist from the occasionally-enhanced recoil of the longer shells.
I've had fancier guns, but this one is my "go-to" bird gun.
BTW: I indexed that wrist pin right-after I took this picture the other day.
This one is getting a little older (circa 1905) and is, in the scheme of things, fairly plain (w/somewhat planky wood & now well-worn checkering and engraving) when compared to some of the "bigger name" guns. Made by a "provincial" maker, and while still very-light (5lbs14), this one is actually in English proof for 2 3/4-inch American shells. I use the 2 1/2-inch stuff to further protect that thin, little, diamond-shaped wrist from the occasionally-enhanced recoil of the longer shells.
I've had fancier guns, but this one is my "go-to" bird gun.
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#58Very nice. Marvelous example of what I am looking for.
I love the detail on the top lever latch
I love the detail on the top lever latch
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#59[url=https://imgur.com/0JCWcnO][/url
I've had fancier guns, but this one is my "go-to" bird gun.
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Some of the best guns are a bit "worn"! I often actually prefer the worn and battered. They are often great shooters. Like a couple of sporterized Mausers I have. Now if I could just find a Rigby in 275 that was in my price range, I'd be happy.. I'd even settle for a lowly Griffen and However 30-06. I know it's not a double gun, but....
Some lovely doubles in this thread.
I've had fancier guns, but this one is my "go-to" bird gun.
[/quote]
Some of the best guns are a bit "worn"! I often actually prefer the worn and battered. They are often great shooters. Like a couple of sporterized Mausers I have. Now if I could just find a Rigby in 275 that was in my price range, I'd be happy.. I'd even settle for a lowly Griffen and However 30-06. I know it's not a double gun, but....
Some lovely doubles in this thread.
Re: The correlation between fine tackle and fine arms?
#60Mr. Brooks: Another alternative...
Terry Wieland, from his March 24, 2023 article in Grey's Sporting Journal titled "Damascus":
"Someone came up with the idea of persuading the shooting public that their old guns were not safe with modern, high pressure ammunition, and Damascus (or twist) barrels were the chosen fall guy. As the ammunition companies embarked on campaigns warning against the use of their ammunition in old guns, the gun companies ramped up their sales pitches for new steel alloy barrels. All of this was aided and abetted by magazines that were suffering in the Depression and needed the advertising. It became an article of faith, and pretty soon grandfathers and fathers were advising their offspring against Damascus, and we all know that Grandad knew about these things and was never wrong.
My late dear friend and colleague, Michael McIntosh, was told this by his father and never let go of the belief, railing against Damascus in print until (almost) the day he died. Even when he got to know many of the English gunmakers, premier barrel makers, and English proof house personnel, and was presented with irrefutable proof of the value of Damascus, he could never shake off the dread. Even his pal, English gunmaker David Trevallion, could not convince him. The best Michael could manage was to stop shrieking in panic in the pages of Shooting Sportsman, and maintain a sulky silence."
(This is my son's gun BTW. A circa 1882 6lb 2oz 12 bore.)
Terry Wieland, from his March 24, 2023 article in Grey's Sporting Journal titled "Damascus":
"Someone came up with the idea of persuading the shooting public that their old guns were not safe with modern, high pressure ammunition, and Damascus (or twist) barrels were the chosen fall guy. As the ammunition companies embarked on campaigns warning against the use of their ammunition in old guns, the gun companies ramped up their sales pitches for new steel alloy barrels. All of this was aided and abetted by magazines that were suffering in the Depression and needed the advertising. It became an article of faith, and pretty soon grandfathers and fathers were advising their offspring against Damascus, and we all know that Grandad knew about these things and was never wrong.
My late dear friend and colleague, Michael McIntosh, was told this by his father and never let go of the belief, railing against Damascus in print until (almost) the day he died. Even when he got to know many of the English gunmakers, premier barrel makers, and English proof house personnel, and was presented with irrefutable proof of the value of Damascus, he could never shake off the dread. Even his pal, English gunmaker David Trevallion, could not convince him. The best Michael could manage was to stop shrieking in panic in the pages of Shooting Sportsman, and maintain a sulky silence."
(This is my son's gun BTW. A circa 1882 6lb 2oz 12 bore.)