"The Bartlett Rod" Discussion

History of the Montague Rod Co. Feel free to discuss Montague Rods here.

Moderators: MontyMan, Ken M 44, fishnbanjo

Post Reply
User avatar
roycestearns
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1826
Joined: 06/10/08 18:00

"The Bartlett Rod" Discussion

#1

Post by roycestearns »

Lets continue the history here instead of the previous post on the Green Monty rod.
Last edited by roycestearns on 02/11/20 12:02, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Gnome
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 3997
Joined: 12/23/04 19:00

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#2

Post by Gnome »

Permit to ask a question of the many of you that know much more about classic rods than I do. Is the technique used to mortise the wood and bamboo at the grip something that can (could) be done by a machine (probably pre-1900), or does it require handcrafting?

While I am at it, about when were loose-ring guides widely replaced with snakes in production rods? How about cork grips? The Bartlett Rod produced (using, but not exclusively, the machinery in Pelham) during the 1880s has the former as well as the rattan grip like the green rod. Does this help place its age?[/quote/] in response to TEJJR's post;

The strips to inlay/Mortise a rod are very easy to make and can and are milled with a belt sander, with a shooting board with the proper angle it takes about 6 minutes to run a set of mortise strips. when cut to length and thickness,
And very little added time in glue-up. looks complicated and hard and it is not either of those, I have had first-time rod makers (10-20 of my students closer to 20) start with mortised 6 strip rods for their first bamboo with great success!!

I feel semi-qualified to answer the above question with over 250 mortised rods in the last 20 years bearing the Gnomish Rod Works signature (Along with my name). To mass produce, those strips is not at all hard.

Hanging rings and snakes tuff question when we have production rods with snakes that I know where made in the very early 1880s circa 1882 and we also have rods with Hanging rings into the teens and twenties, first mention of snakes is in Frank Foresters Guide for young Sportsmen published in 1853. TEJJR I would like to extend an invite to you if you are ever in SW Colorado come by Paonia and I will open up the GTRS for you and you can take that stroll down the banks of time covering 200 years of rod making.

Cork grips were first used by CF Orvis and they where 6 flat strips applied horizontally on the grip(first used to make a soft comfortable grip for the ladies;-)), cork rings are a tough one as I have a John Krider circa 1878-1882 that has cork rings for the grip, and a Mills STANDARD circa 1885-1900 and it has cork rings as well, 3/8ths of an inch thick. And then came the KOSMICS with their 1/8th" rings,

User avatar
roycestearns
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1826
Joined: 06/10/08 18:00

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#3

Post by roycestearns »

For historical accuracy
Cork grips were first used by CF Orvis and they where 6 flat strips applied horizontally on the grip(first used to make a soft comfortable grip for the ladies;-)),
CF Orvis used cork prior to the ladies rods. At least by 1883 CFO built No 9's (11' 7oz split bamboo) with horizontal cork sheet grips. The first record I see of one is for A. N. Cheney (co author of "Fishing with the Fly" 1883). The other grips built were sumac, black walnut, and wound black cord.
Hanging rings and snakes tuff question when we have production rods with snakes that I know where made in the very early 1880s circa 1882 and we also have rods with Hanging rings into the teens and twenties, first mention of snakes is in Frank Foresters Guide for young Sportsmen published in 1853
Frank's book was published in 1856 and where is the reference to snake guides?
Last edited by roycestearns on 02/25/20 12:58, edited 1 time in total.

Bethabara
Guide
Posts: 187
Joined: 03/30/17 08:28

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#4

Post by Bethabara »

Well, I have made morticed rod myself and machining is a small part of the operation if I can find some old pictures I could scan them to my PC someday when I get another break.
I have cut mahogany strips 1/2" X 13" at a 22 degree but first, make the cane rod but don't glue the base end 12-inches from the bottom. Instead, use a binding line tightly from 12-inch and lead to the first inch and stop. Make a long 13" X 1/2" conically shaped plug to expand the six sections. Wet down those six flailing segments with hot water and shove the plug in loosely tying off at the rear.
Now is when you will need to firm fit those 22 degrees cut mahogony strips, you can use gorilla glue, a half-inch disposable brush and latex cloves then use the binding line again to secure all twelve pieces.
Start at the bind on the bamboo and work backwards toward the bottom. This is the time to make your mortising creation concentric and true through to the top of the butt. Let hang straight down for 24 hours before you begin with a knife, a file, and lathe. This is just the basics, trial and error is the best teacher until perfected.
My first three attempts were cut up and burned in my fireplace like a Viking funeral.
I think I will post a different rod on [Collecting Cane], maybe that will bring in some new chatter on an old subject.
I won't need to explain, you'll know it when you see it.

User avatar
roycestearns
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1826
Joined: 06/10/08 18:00

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#5

Post by roycestearns »

Here's an image of a production rod with a mortised butt. With the sheet cork removed you can see the mortise was not carried very far into the grip.

Image

User avatar
Ron Gast
Sport
Posts: 92
Joined: 09/28/12 05:32
Location: Frostproof, FL
Contact:

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#6

Post by Ron Gast »

Here's one.

Image
Image
Last edited by Ron Gast on 04/11/20 06:28, edited 1 time in total.

TEJJR
Sport
Posts: 91
Joined: 01/12/19 18:20

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#7

Post by TEJJR »

Really appreciate the info on the guides, cork grips and mortise work. So it appears the first two appear around 1880. Helps to date the green rod, no? Montague was founded in 1886. Assume folks have seen early production Montagues with loose ring guides and without cork. Seems a little odd they'd start up large scale rod production using dated features. I date The Bartlett Rod as early as 1878 when the first catalog appeared.

User avatar
TheMontyMan
Global Moderator
Posts: 1703
Joined: 03/13/09 19:00
Location: Pacific NW

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#8

Post by TheMontyMan »

I apologize for my absence from this topic, and from the Forum in general. Just starting to get my passion back and starting to re-engage. Looks like I missed out on some fun with this one. I'll try to hit some of the high points without re-hashing too much of what others have covered.
TEJJR wrote:Noticed the guides, which Campbell notes were stopped being used around 1900 when production cane rods started being churned out by makers like Montague. This feature could make the rod quite old. Then there's the swell on this rod. I'd be very surprised that was offered on any production rod. If it is in fact a Montague I suspect it was a custom rod made by E.P. Bartlett at their high-end workshop in Pelham, MA. There are reel seat similarities between this rod and a surviving Bartlett which has now been located.
The time frame for use of hanging ring guides - I've seen advertisements for Montague rods (and other makers) using hanging ring guides into the late teens. I would suspect they continued using them into the early 20's. That factor alone does not date the rod to prior to 1900.

Mortised rods as "production" rods - Montague definitely had the capability to produce mortised rods in large quantities, and they did. Montague wholesale advertisements offered a line-up of 4 or 5 models of mortised rods in various quality levels into the early 1930's.
TEJJR wrote:around 1900 when production cane rods started being churned out by makers like Montague
As our Gnome pointed out, production rods were being "churned out" by many companies long before 1900. The Bartlett brothers and Thomas Chubb were among the largest producers. The Bartletts (pre-Montague) were "churning out" a lot of rods (from Pelham, Mass.) for the time period, and they weren't going to the individual sportsman down the street. Per the only Eugene P. Bartlett catalog that I'm aware of, they were marketing to the "trade", meaning they were selling wholesale to retailers as big as they could get. Some of the pricing in that catalog prices the rods by the dozen.
TEJJR wrote:There are reel seat similarities between this rod and a surviving Bartlett which has now been located.
I would love to see a confirmed Bartlett rod. I have yet to see one, or pictures of one. Without being labeled as such, it is very difficult to definitively attribute a rod to the pre-Montague City Rod Company time frame. The illustrations in the 1800's Eugene P. Bartlett catalog that I've seen were not very detailed, which leaves quite a bit of room for interpretation and error.

Is the "surviving Bartlett" rod you refer to marked/labeled as a Bartlett rod?

. . . Rex
The Monty Man

User avatar
Gnome
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 3997
Joined: 12/23/04 19:00

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#9

Post by Gnome »

Rex,

good to see you back!! :D we need your deep knowledge!!!

get a chance, please give me a shout

Jeff

Bethabara
Guide
Posts: 187
Joined: 03/30/17 08:28

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#10

Post by Bethabara »

Well, this is probably kicking the tires after that car was purchased and seems unrelated, but!
Old fisherman dies and takes what info they knew with them to the grave.
Old factory workers retire and never want to see a production item again.
From split-shot tins to shotshell boxes and reel oil bottles, so many items were meant to be discarded.
And the joke is on us because we want to collect all that we can't have like terminal tackle and of course that includes old fishing rods and catalogs.

We sometimes wonder how people can be so brilliant on one thing and stupid or negligent on other things.
Take for example Ed Cummings in Flint, another famous tackle outfitter from Detroit, and still another from Muskegon, Michigan. Fine proprietors but lousy promotors. It would seem so strange that publications like catalogs are our lifeline to the past. And yet, every time an old frog croaks the first thing the inlaws do is clean out his basement or workshop of any old nasty looking paperwork automatically goes into the trash.

Just imagine all the collectible stuff that was shot off a fence post with a .22, tosed in the mud or trash-can, dropped over the side of a boat. How about an old wood Winchester shotshell shipping crate full of old reels and parts that ended up in the landfill. Does that conjure up any thoughts?

Three of the most repeated comments I make to serious collecting customers on the prowl are these;
[1] If it doesn't have a name, or numbers, or a decal, or a stamp in the metal, don't buy it!
[2] If it's missing tips, ferrules, bags, tubes, reel seats, offer the guy $5 or $10 bucks, and no more, even if it's worth $300.
[3] I can do the impossible in three days, miracles take an added 24 hours and cost extra.

Strictly off the record: I went to a local gun show just to nose around and on a table was a 2-2 bamboo rod with bag and Al. tube. I asked the guy about the rod. He said nobody uses this old crap anymore; I got a hundred on it; but make me an offer. I also saw a fly reel inside a plastic storage tub with a pouch and the box. So I said what's on this old reel? The guy said; tell you what, if you buy the rod, I'll throw in the reel.
When I left I bought that Para-15 for $75.00 and got the Glorywest for free.
After I got home that day, the reel was sold for $400.00 and the Paul Young went to Potsdam, NY for $1800.00
The cracker barrel is alive and well but like Brigadoon, it does not appear very often.

TEJJR
Sport
Posts: 91
Joined: 01/12/19 18:20

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#11

Post by TEJJR »

Good to have Rex back with his expertise on Montague. Both of the points he made in response to my earlier posting are addressed in the AFF article mentioned by roycestearns a day or two ago the in the other thread.

In short, the rod shop in Pelham run by E.P. Bartlett was making high-end rods, including custom orders. One of the company's marked rods has surfaced and is documented for apparently the first time.

User avatar
roycestearns
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1826
Joined: 06/10/08 18:00

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#12

Post by roycestearns »

One of the company's marked rods has surfaced and is documented for apparently the first time.
Did I miss it, or do we not have documentation how the rod was marked?
The Article states "apparently the "Best Light Fly" model listed" .. is that marked on the rod?
Thomas do you have additional pictures of the rod in question?

TEJJR
Sport
Posts: 91
Joined: 01/12/19 18:20

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#13

Post by TEJJR »

In the article photo you can (just) make out on the rear band top the marking "The Bartlett Rod." No other markings. Bob Irvin confirmed the marking before I paid a visit to American Rivers. I have pasted something below of relevance...

I'M THE GUY WHO DONATED a Bartlett Fly Rod to American Rivers. You apparently had some questions
about it? I got the rod about 67 years ago and used it about 10 years at which time a smallmouth bass broke it at two
ferrules. It was not a very big bass, so I suspect dry rot was a factor? That fish actually broke it twice.
It is a three piece buggy whip style that was originally about nine and a half feet long.
Interesting features are rattan grip, agate stripping guide, bayonet ferrule and ring guides.
Most people anymore do not know what ring guides are! They are terrible for friction.
I will be glad to answer any other questions that you may have
I'm going to mail some information about early fly rod history to Bob Irvin and he will pass it on to you.

User avatar
cwfly
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 3012
Joined: 02/24/06 19:00

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#14

Post by cwfly »

I think it started here:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=84937

TEJJR
Sport
Posts: 91
Joined: 01/12/19 18:20

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#15

Post by TEJJR »

Yes! Good catch cwfly...

User avatar
TheMontyMan
Global Moderator
Posts: 1703
Joined: 03/13/09 19:00
Location: Pacific NW

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#16

Post by TheMontyMan »

I'd like to reach back into the original thread to pull out a very salient point made by cwfly.
cwfly wrote:To the extent you suggest that Hazelton wrote that the 6,000 per annum rods were being produced in Montague City and the factory in Pelham under the supervision of E. P. Bartlett was producing but “a fraction” I disagree. The text is clear. E. P. Bartlett’s factory in Pelham was producing roughly 6,000 rods of varying types per year.

I agree wholeheartedly with cwfly's interpretation of the text cited. I have a copy of that 1891 article and have studied the history and pre-history of the Bartlett brothers and their fishing rod production.

By 1891, the Pelham factory had grown significantly, adding additional buildings and had several wholesale contracts. They would have been staffed with approximately 50 people and 6,000 rods per year is a good number of rods for them to produce with those facilities and that staff.

By that time, the Montague City factory had been built. It spanned a city block, and employed as many as 300 people. Their rod production numbers would probably have been over 6,000 rods per month (probably significantly more than that), including all fishing rod types - fly, bait, surf, ocean - split bamboo, lancewood, greenheart, etc.

. . . Rex
The Monty Man

TEJJR
Sport
Posts: 91
Joined: 01/12/19 18:20

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#17

Post by TEJJR »

6,000 a year at Pelham would average out to about 120 per week or 20 a day. Seems plausible. A good number of these, but certainly not all, went to fill wholesale contracts which we can now confirm included A&I in NYC and E.K. Tyron in Philadelphia. More significant perhaps was Bartlett's rod supply to the Marshall Field's department store in Chicago, then the pinnacle of luxury retailing in America. Campbell discusses Chicago area tackle houses such as E.E. Eaton, and their suppliers back east, but no mention is made of Field's. Is anyone aware of other wholesale rod suppliers to this flagship merchandiser?

I am curious to know when Montague was at its diversified peak around 1900 and had/controlled rod production facilities in Montague City, Pelham and Vermont (former-Chubb), which location made (mostly) what. Any thoughts on this? One would think Chubb made most of the metalwork items, and mostly (native) wood rods. The plant had no direct railway access, like Montague which had a siding at its door, and it would make no economic sense to ship cane up there when those types of rods could be made in quantity at locations closer to both raw materials and markets (and in the case of Montague City, cheap power).

User avatar
cwfly
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 3012
Joined: 02/24/06 19:00

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#18

Post by cwfly »

TEJJR wrote:6,000 a year at Pelham would average out to about 120 per week or 20 a day. Seems plausible. A good number of these, but certainly not all, went to fill wholesale contracts which we can now confirm included A&I in NYC and E.K. Tyron in Philadelphia. More significant perhaps was Bartlett's rod supply to the Marshall Field's department store in Chicago, then the pinnacle of luxury retailing in America. Campbell discusses Chicago area tackle houses such as E.E. Eaton, and their suppliers back east, but no mention is made of Field's. Is anyone aware of other wholesale rod suppliers to this flagship merchandiser?

I am curious to know when Montague was at its diversified peak around 1900 and had/controlled rod production facilities in Montague City, Pelham and Vermont (former-Chubb), which location made (mostly) what. Any thoughts on this? One would think Chubb made most of the metalwork items, and mostly (native) wood rods. The plant had no direct railway access, like Montague which had a siding at its door, and it would make no economic sense to ship cane up there when those types of rods could be made in quantity at locations closer to both raw materials and markets (and in the case of Montague City, cheap power).
The T. H. Chubb 1908 catalog pretty much speaks for itself:

https://books.google.com/books?id=XzU9A ... og&f=false

TEJJR
Sport
Posts: 91
Joined: 01/12/19 18:20

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#19

Post by TEJJR »

Thanks, very useful. Chubb clearly offers everything an angler could want. Couple of things I find interesting. First, that there's absolutely no indication that Chubb is owned by Montague. Its like they are two parallel, competing companies. Interesting business model... Second, how low the prices are for the split-cane rods, whether six or eight strip. Highest price I see is $15. The Bartlett Rod sold for double that 30 years earlier. Clearly targeting different segments of the overall market.

Bethabara
Guide
Posts: 187
Joined: 03/30/17 08:28

Re: Montague Rod & Reel History

#20

Post by Bethabara »

That 1908 catalog is a wonderful piece of angling history, I wish I had a copy.

Look at the rods butt cap from the catalogs line drawing page 7 and 21, is the same as in my green rod photos.

Post Reply

Return to “Montague Rod & Reel Co.”