Leonard in Hiram's lifetime

[jeffkn1]

I have a theory that says that Leonard had no signature wraps until the Mills/Sole Agent period. Has anyone seen an original, unrestored Leonard/Maker, A&I Sole Agent, or Leonard/Bangor rod with signature wraps?

[2dabacking]

Jerry sent me photos of his wood Leonard with 6 strip bamboo tips. It's got a greenheart butt and two greenheart mids, with three split bamboo tips. Butt, mids, and one tip are 46+ for an 11'+ length, the other two tips shorter. Butt ferrule has both patent dates, raising the question of whether it is a replacement, since the butt cap has the early stamp. Condition is original, surprisingly. Great find, only one I have seen.

Jeff, I remember seeing that rod at Tim Pond six years ago and asking a few questions about it. Noone had any answers. I'll ask again:
- How do you reconcile the "Maker" stamp with the fact that all ferrules are post-patent?
- Isn't it a bit out of place to see non-rounded, 6-strips on one of HLL's earliest rods?
Thanks,
Joel

[jeffkn1]

Jeff, I remember seeing that rod at Tim Pond six years ago and asking a few questions about it. Noone had any answers. I'll ask again:
- How do you reconcile the "Maker" stamp with the fact that all ferrules are post-patent?
- Isn't it a bit out of place to see non-rounded, 6-strips on one of HLL's earliest rods?
Thanks,
Joel

I brought that up in my post. Jerry has not gotten back to me regarding the question. He's been busy this past week so perhaps he'll get back to me soon.

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, Great topic, research, photos and information. Thanks,

Jay Edwards

[jeffkn1]

I spoke with Jerry today and he reminded me of the difficulty we continue having with establishing reasonably exact production dates. Part of that, as we've seen so many times, is because of what appears to be use-up of existing stock. Another issue is that we, some of us anyway, feel the first stamp was in use up to the point where Leonard did his A&I deal beginning in '75. In that case, a 6-strip tip wouldn't be out of the ordinary. I had him confirm that the butt ferrule had both '75 and '78 dates, the first date by itself opening the door to the possibility of an early-ish '75 rod. Not a clear answer, not as absolute as we'd rather have, but with Leonard in Bangor, things were always in a state of flux.

[jeffkn1]

Leonard began supplying Andrew Clerk about '71 and continued to buildup his business so that by "75 he had a 'full' staff and a lot of capital invested in tooling. Not to be ignored is the Panic of '73, a nationwide financial event that wiped out many banks and railroads, and put a lot of people out of work. Throw in Leonard's involvement in a movement to propagate gamefish for stocking programs, and you have a man with a lot of balls in the air.
Leonard knew the Sebec watershed as well as anyone and it was there that they built a hatchery to raise landlocked salmon. The rough plan (I've not read the proposal) was that the hatchery would capture spawners and sell fertized eggs to states and Federal facilities. I guess it was essentially that the sale of eggs was to support the operation.
A series of letters penned by Leonard to William Moulton, the hatchery supervisor, revealed Leonard's increasing frustration with the lack of cohesiveness to the plan. The way I like to characterize it is that the project was long on ambition, short on planning, and undercapitalized. But little details come out, little revelations. Evan H. Gerrish, historically credited with the development of the canvas over wood watercraft (canoes mostly), was a guide from Brownville next door to Sebec. He was said to be one of the best guides in the area. In one '75 letter, one in my possession, Leonard tells Moulton that "Gerrish" will build the ' fish traps' for the coming spawning run. This was confirmed by a Federal report on the project.
As we also know, the hatchery was shut down in 1876. By the next year, the Bangor Directory has Gerrish living in the city and making fishing rods. Having already established a working relationship with Leonard, and possibly a close friendship, it's not hard to imagine that Gerrish was being coached or employed by Leonard. Documentation hasn't been found to support that yet. We do know that Gerrish made watercraft and was listed as a rod maker when Leonard moved on to Central Valley.
At one point in '75, Leonard complains in a letter to Moulton that he's had a rough year, he's been paying out too much out of pocket for the hatchery when the Feds and states had that responsibility. So, he's got a shop with high overhead, he's selling in an economy badly weakened, and then he tells of a cane supply problem; triple whammy.
I'm still nosing around to see if that's a universal issue. Was there upheaval in India? Don't know yet but it seems his moves from 1877-1879 come into sharper focus. It was all about the Benjamins.

[jeffkn1]

Many thanks, Fred! I could be mistaken but the sliding band appears to be upside down on this example. Yes?

Keane pictured the Lizzie Leonard rod in his book and that rod had the gold wash as well. Since Marty's passing the Lizzie rod has yet to make an appearance. And there's the 8' Gold Kosmic in Jerry's collection, which can be seen in the Kosmic chapter of the Thomas book. Jerry's Kosmic has a gold wash and is wrapped in gold thread with black tipping.

Speaking of gold on rod hardware, while looking at a Chubb c1880's parts price list the other day I spotted this note at the bottom of the page. Turns out wasn't too terribly expensive. And that was for a full set of hardware.

[chestatee]

This made my day. What a fantastic post. Thanks to all who have invested so much time and are willing to share. Tremendous!

[Dark Waters]

Really appreciate the history lesson and passion you guys have for HL Leonard. Its quite fascinating. I recently picked up a 10’ early Catskill with ring guides and N’York stamp on the butt cap, rattan grip, cane and cedar swelled butt into the real seat, etc.

I wonder, what role if any would Hiram himself have played in its construction? What other masters had a hand in it as well? It sure is a fine casting rod even with the tip being 2 inches short.

[jeffkn1]

They are smooth casters. I haven't fished one but the one I cast was nice.
Catskills were made for many decades. I'd have to scrounge through the references to look for hints at when Leonard might have been stepping back a bit. Off the top of my head, I think Hiram's nephew Reuben had assumed a foreman position by the 1890's. Hiram could make complete rods but it's anybody's guess whether he ever did a complete rod once he had people like Thomas and Edwards in the shop. How much Hiram did can be debated til the cows come home without reaching a consensus, but my strongest feeling is that once he moved to Central Valley, he probably never made a complete rod again.
But, the Catskill series had its birth in the 1880's when Hiram's direction was a necessity so you can say that much about the one you have. The first couple of years in the early 1870's he may have made complete rods. If you come across a wood Leonard there's always a possibility that it was turned on a lathe operated by Fred Thomas.
Nice rod. Good question. Sorry I can't offer more.

[Dark Waters]

Thank you very much for the info! I treasure this one, will certainly be on the lookout for more and older rods.

I did read a discussion on the forum debating (probably most or all of the gentleman who’ve already replied to this thread) if any Mills era rods like mine were built in Bangor, and final assembled, and stamped in NY. No one really knows

The mystery of it all is what makes it so interesting!

[jeffkn1]

What you are recalling was a stated belief of the late Jay Vargas, a Massachusetts rod collector who specialized in Leonards from the Bangor era. His handle here at the board was JayJV. This search will take you to all of his posts, three pages of them. Anyone who finds the early stuff interesting will find some good reading here but it must be remembered that Jay believed Marty Keane's words were etched in stone. Facts learned since Marty wrote his book have altered the actual history. Jay never deserted him though. The Leonard that Fred Kretchman posted above, the one with the gold wash, came out of Jay Vargas' collection. I was fortunate enough to acquire a few of his Leonards myself, as well as a Thaddeus Norris.

search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=J ... mit=Search

[Short Tip]

Just as an aside, "Eve" Gerrish was indeed the first known builder of the wood and canvas canoe, inspired by the Indian birchbark. His boats are to canoes what Leonards are to fly rods. His canoes are notable for the symbolic lashing across the deck, an homage to the birch craft which inspired him. It's neat that Leonard knew him and I like to think that they were friends. They had the same drive towards innovation and perfection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.H._Gerr ... oe_Company

[jeffkn1]

For Gerrish canoe fans there's a Facebook page devoted to his canoes. Included is a recently added rare photograph of him.

https://www.facebook.com/EH-Gerrish-Can ... DXwTZhlKH7

The local paper of that time, the Bangor Whig & Courier, occasionally noted Gerrish sales. One reference was to a rod "without joints", which I've been assuming was a splice joint. Another connection that Gerrish and Leonard had was they both knew and/or did business with Philbrook & Payne. And Gerrish had a store front located next door to the office of Henry A. Merrill, the same one whose rods had the unique ferrules, and only a couple blocks away from Leonard who was around the corner.

[Pentalux]

I have a theory that says that Leonard had no signature wraps until the Mills/Sole Agent period. Has anyone seen an original, unrestored Leonard/Maker, A&I Sole Agent, or Leonard/Bangor rod with signature wraps?

I have one Jeff. Jerry has seen it and thought it likely restored at Leonard during Sole Agents era but from the age of varnish and raw can under missing wraps I believe it to be original and why I have never restored it as believe it perhaps one of the very earliest examples - has earliest stamp and spiked ferrules, tip tube with both full length tips, hanging rings. Original tattered canvas rod bag too so really think its original. I have a salmon rod with second stamp and it has his typical wide band base wrap and no signature wraps - my guess is it was done for the NY market (perhaps even at Kidder's request - who knows) and is another example of his creativity. Will try and take some pic's soon.

My question to you Jeff, are the whereabouts of the Leonard Centennial rod (jeweled and made with a reel, joints and handle made of gold for A&I) known?

[jeffkn1]

Thanks, Rob.

We have looked for those specials without much success. Can't hurt to search previous discussions in case I missed something. Charlie was after them a couple years back but I don't think he found it.

[wineslob]

Many thanks, Fred! I could be mistaken but the sliding band appears to be upside down on this example. Yes?

Keane pictured the Lizzie Leonard rod in his book and that rod had the gold wash as well. Since Marty's passing the Lizzie rod has yet to make an appearance. And there's the 8' Gold Kosmic in Jerry's collection, which can be seen in the Kosmic chapter of the Thomas book. Jerry's Kosmic has a gold wash and is wrapped in gold thread with black tipping.

Speaking of gold on rod hardware, while looking at a Chubb c1880's parts price list the other day I spotted this note at the bottom of the page. Turns out wasn't too terribly expensive. And that was for a full set of hardware.

I had a mid 20's Hardy (Princess?) that had the gold on hardware. I thought at first it was varnish, but after stripping the rod it remained.

[Pentalux]

Here are a few pic's of my earliest Leonard with full signature wraps (or at least where they were).


and one more where I walked the histogram to pull out the micro cracking in the varnish showing its age:



As mentioned it has previously been thought that this was likely rewrapped since originally built but the tips fit in the tube perfectly and there is not a single indicator of a previous pattern on any section - the signature wraps were usually darker in 1875 and also separated off of the guide wraps which there are no ghosts of nor is there the block that usually sits between top of grip and first guide (also always straddled by the intermediates which there is no ghosting of). Furthermore, if you were gonna have your rod redone would think you would have snakes put on it - doubt it was an early restoration at Leonard as they would have followed the rods initial pattern... Your thoughts Jeff

[roycestearns]

This is a fantastic thread, I've come back multiple times.
Pentalux - here's something to consider, and I'm not saying it's the case with your rod. I sometimes forget where these rods went and what they did. Think about the rod made in Maine, the customer takes it to another location, breaks the rod, Leonard's moved, the customer has it repaired where ever he needs it. This is a repair record from 1896 in the Manchester VT shop: 1 Leonard fly rod for repairs 11 ft 1 Butt 1 - 2nd jt 2 short tips sack & stained box Cleaned old windings & varnish all off & made 2 new tips with agate tips. Rod to have ring guides #S 4 hours

[jeffkn1]

if you were gonna have your rod redone would think you would have snakes put on it - doubt it was an early restoration at Leonard as they would have followed the rods initial pattern... Your thoughts Jeff

Anyone old enough and well off enough to buy a Leonard in '75 might be 50+ by '96 and disinclined to put different guides on his old rod. Ring guides are less of an issue than most people think, as long as you keep in mind the way folks cast those things. But it's anybody's guess.
And you helped answer that question about how early the signatures began.

Nice paper, Royce!