Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

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Greg Reynolds
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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#101

Post by Greg Reynolds »

para_adams wrote:
01/04/21 17:16
Here's another 6-1/2' Deluxe, no serial number, in what looks to be the twin of jhuskey's rod. This one was made for Leon E. Wiley of Manchester VT. I have a request in to Orvis to see if they can locate this rod in their "book", I'll let you know if I hear back from them. Like jhuskey, I'm a little uncertain of ferrule size...my best guess is 10.5 (?). And I have one question...is the tube an Orvis tube? I know the sock is the standard plaid sock.
I measured ferrules this morning using a decent quality digital micrometer with this rod in mind:
Orvis 11/64-ferrule Superfine = 0.1705-inch = 11/64-inch
Orvis 10/64-ferrule Flea = 0.1545-inch = 10/64-inch
Leonard 10/64-ferrule (as a check) = 0.1555-inch = 10/64-inch

I think the Deluxe rods posted by JHuskey and you are the 1952-only 10/64 model.

Deluxe #13012 (10/64-ferrules, 6/18/52) has the same Cal-Air Champion tube:
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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#102

Post by Greg Reynolds »

eastprong wrote:
01/04/21 10:55
Starting in the 1950s, the 16/10 was marked at 4 3/4 oz. Mine from 1945 weighs 4.60 oz. on my postal scale. When they started listing line sizes, it was labeled as HDH (~DT6; pre-AFTMA)). Curiously, in the 1966 catalog it is listed at 4 5/8 oz. with line weights of HDH or HCF (WF7) and also gives the AFTMA numbers. I think 1966 or 1967 was the last year of manufacture for this rod, but most of my catalogs are packed away at the moment.

--Rich
Adrien & Rich,
From my notes...
8 ½-foot, 4 3/4-oz, 16/64 & 10/64-ferrules taper:
The 8 ½-foot, 16/64 & 10/64-ferrule, 4 3/4-oz taper has a slow action. It was developed by Wes Jordan in the 1940s for HDH or HDG diameter-based silk fly lines—about 6-weight fly AFTMA synthetic lines.

It was cataloged no later than 1948 and replaced in 1963 by a taper modified to better cast lines made to conform with the then-new AFTMA weight-based line standards.

It was available in Battenkill (~1948-1962), Manchester (~1948-1955) and Equinox (1950) grades.

8 ½-foot, 4 5/8-oz, 16/64 & 10/64-ferrules taper:
The 8 ½-foot, 16/64 & 10/64-ferrule, 4 5/8-oz taper has a slow action. It was developed by Wes Jordan for synthetic fly lines based on the then-new AFTMA weight-based line standards.

The taper was only available in Battenkill grade, was introduced in the 1963 catalog and made through 1976. It was always sold with two tips.

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#103

Post by Bamboo revival »

4’4” Orvis Banty 2/1 made for Arnold Gingrich serial number: 37538

A fun dry fly brookie rod esp with the right line on it the rod comes alive! Jim teeny first cast 4wt is the same taper as the original torpedo line . Highly recommended for people that think it’s a broomstick.


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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#104

Post by Greg Reynolds »

It's an interesting model with a wonderful provenance. You probably already know that it came from the estate of forum member Chris Lloyd. Chris was a serious and extremely knowledgeable Orvis collector. I miss his thoughtful posts.

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#105

Post by flyrod »

Greg Reynolds wrote:
01/07/21 10:31
It's an interesting model with a wonderful provenance. You probably already know that it came from the estate of forum member Chris Lloyd. Chris was a serious and extremely knowledgeable Orvis collector. I miss his thoughtful posts.
Here's another Orvis Banty with leather tube from Chris's estate. A wonderful small stream rod once you line it properly.

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#106

Post by eastprong »

Greg:

My 1945 16/10 (4.75 oz. on my scale, marked only "Bakelite Impregnated Pat. Pend.", ferrules measured as 16/10) is not a slow rod at all. Here's a stress curve comparison with a Payne 204 from Hal bacon with a 5wt line versus SN1196 with a 6wt:

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0 0.071
5 0.084
10 0.100
15 0.111
20 0.125
25 0.136
30 0.148
35 0.168
40 0.179
45 0.194
50 0.204
55 0.215
60 0.231
65 0.247
70 0.261
75 0.279
80 0.297
85 0.311
90 0.329
94 0.342

My feeling is that Jordan evolved his tapers sometime in the late 40s away from the Catskill-like dry fly action that you see here and in the Orvis varnished rods, but I haven't done the analysis. If anyone has the taper for a post-1950 8'6" 16/10, I can do it.

--Rich
Last edited by eastprong on 01/07/21 21:05, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#107

Post by hopkintoncane »

Maybe just a unsubstantiated tale, but I think I might have heard somewhere that Wes was directed to beef up tips in the early 50s to "improve" power transfer and possibly to reduce the potential for returned broken sections?, synthetic line coming on line and increase of line density might have also been a factor?? who knows Todd
Last edited by hopkintoncane on 01/07/21 16:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#108

Post by Greg Reynolds »

eastprong wrote:
01/07/21 13:18
Greg:

My 1945 16/10 is not a slow rod at all...

Mt feeling is that Jordan evolved his tapers sometime in the late 40s away from the Catskill-like dry fly action that you see here and in the Orvis varnished rods...

--Rich
Thank you Rich. I'm going to revise the my notes, which I use to help me answer database E-mail and need to be accurate. I developed them based on catalog entries (images below). However, prior to 1949 and after 1968, ferrule sizes weren't stated in the catalogs. Rod actions typically weren't stated until 1965. I'm not sure where I got the "slow action" for the pre-1963 rods. The only reference to action is the 1950 catalog describing an 8 1/2-foot, 5-oz "Special Impregnated" as having a medium action (see the images below). It's likely built on 16/64 & 10/64 taper, but in this case, ferrule sizes weren't given, so I'm not positive.

Image
Image

Best regards,
Greg
Last edited by Greg Reynolds on 01/07/21 17:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#109

Post by Greg Reynolds »

flyrod wrote:
01/07/21 11:57
Here's another Orvis Banty with leather tube from Chris's estate...
Chris was different than most (or many) collectors in that he had, at least in some cases, multiples of the same model. Most appeared to be in pristine condition.

It's a beautiful rod...

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#110

Post by Bamboo revival »

Greg Reynolds wrote:
01/07/21 16:17
flyrod wrote:
01/07/21 11:57
Here's another Orvis Banty with leather tube from Chris's estate...
Chris was different than most (or many) collectors in that he had, at least in some cases, multiples of the same model. Most appeared to be in pristine condition.

It's a beautiful rod...
I always take the banty out at least once a year to my favorite brookie creek in GSMNP to pay homage to Chris and Arnold.

Though I never knew Chris I enjoy his wealth of Knowledge that can still be seen on the forum.



Image


Image
Last edited by Bamboo revival on 01/07/21 18:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#111

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler »

I have a 1964 version of the 8 1/2' 16/10 rod and it is definitely what I would characterize as on the slower side of medium. My rod was sold through Abercrombie & Fitch, which strangely listed it at 4 3/4 oz, while the Orvis catalog listed it at 4 5/8 oz. I like it best with a Phoenix DT6 silk line.
Last edited by NewUtahCaneAngler on 01/07/21 20:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#112

Post by flyrod »

Greg Reynolds wrote:
01/07/21 16:17
flyrod wrote:
01/07/21 11:57
Here's another Orvis Banty with leather tube from Chris's estate...
Chris was different than most (or many) collectors in that he had, at least in some cases, multiples of the same model. Most appeared to be in pristine condition.

It's a beautiful rod...
I was luck enough to pick up a number of rods from Chris's estate. All of them are in amazing shape!

I also have a 2nd Banty (for a guest fisherman) from Chris's estate.

Image

I like to pair the Bantys up with an old 2 3/8" JW Young reel. I think they just look good together :pipe

Image

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#113

Post by eastprong »

NewUtahCaneAngler wrote:
01/07/21 18:03
I have a 1964 version of the 8 1/2' 16/10 rod and it is definitely what I would characterize as on the slower side of medium. My rod was sold through Abercrombie & Fitch, which strangely listed it at 4 3/4 oz, while the Orvis catalog listed it at 4 5/8 oz. I like it best with a Phoenix DT6 silk line.
Any chance you can post the taper?

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#114

Post by Greg Reynolds »

Greg Reynolds wrote:
01/07/21 16:09

The only reference to action is the 1950 catalog describing an 8 1/2-foot, 5-oz "Special Impregnated" as having a medium action. It's likely built on 16/64 & 10/64 taper, but in this case, ferrule sizes weren't given, so I'm not positive.
The "Special Impregnated" with the medium action in the 1950 catalog is the 17/64 & 10/64 taper. Sorry for the confusion...

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#115

Post by McHull »

This may fall under unusual, at least to me. I have a Battenkill 3 7/8 oz. with a reversed half wells grip, instead of the cigar. It's pretty cool, plus we share the same birth year, 1968.

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#116

Post by Greg Reynolds »

McHull wrote:
01/08/21 13:04
This may fall under unusual, at least to me. I have a Battenkill 3 7/8 oz. with a reversed half wells grip, instead of the cigar. It's pretty cool, plus we share the same birth year, 1968.
It's very uncommon...

Nice to have some youngsters on the forum... :)

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#117

Post by ibookje »

Like that grip!
And that rod is as young as me

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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#118

Post by McHull »

ibookje wrote:
01/08/21 14:58
Like that grip!
And that rod is as young as me
To 1968! :skoal :skoal
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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#119

Post by Flyman615 »

Greg Reynolds wrote:
01/08/21 14:11
McHull wrote:
01/08/21 13:04
This may fall under unusual, at least to me. I have a Battenkill 3 7/8 oz. with a reversed half wells grip, instead of the cigar. It's pretty cool, plus we share the same birth year, 1968.
It's very uncommon... :)
My favorite grip profile. And another reason I really like the two early 1940s Manchesters I referred to earlier in the thread.

Thanks again guys for keeping it going!

Scott
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Re: Let's take a look at some unusual/scarce Orvis fly rods

#120

Post by para_adams »

Hey guys, I hope it's OK to post this image, had some fun posing a 6-1/2' Deluxe with an older Orvis Battenkill reel today. The Deluxe rod sock dresses up the image very nicely. The image is around 14MB which would print well if anyone's interested.

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