You all kidding me?
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Re: You all kidding me?
#21At the last couple "Bamboo Bash" gatherings we've had a large group of Pflueger reels (all the same) loaded with almost any line you can imagine. We invite guys to cast away with the different lines on their own rods and do a comparison, and hopefully even give us a written opinion. The vast majority of the attendees have taken us up on the offer, and it's one of the highlights of the event. By in large the results mirror exactly what you folks are describing above. Folks are really amazed at the difference the various lines produce, and I'm afraid we've upped the sales of new lines. This feature will continue at future " Bashes", in fact some of the guys are delaying line purchases until the event to ensure they get the best match to the rod!
Ralph
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Re: You all kidding me?
#22I really like the SA amplitude trout DT on some of my bamboo. It Really sings. The amplitude infinity is meant for fast action graphite rods . Today you have to really look into modern line specs to get the proper match . A 6wt line is no longer a 6wt line you must read the descriptions on the lines websites .. the SA amplitude trout DT for example is true to line wt made for moderate graphite fiberglass and bamboo.
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Re: You all kidding me?
#23Don,
I am still fishing your 5wt, and using a Cortland 333 or 444 DT. I find the issue you have identified is hideous (worst) on Saltwater Rods and Lines. In Spey casting, many casters play around with the weight (and shape) to reflects casting preference.
In the past few years, I have been spending more effort to understand weight and profile, and apply it to my "want". It is interesting, I recently blog about this, and I added another issue. The shape of the head is more about casting, than fishing. Id est, the profile is good at launching the fly, but poor for mending and presentation.
https://raspberryfisher.wordpress.com/2 ... and-reels/
I came to the conclusion, I would look at Cortland in the future (444SL or UltraLight), but as I stated in the blog, there are few good alternatives if we are pursuing fishing versus casting. So what other alternates are there, other than Cortland?
Airflo > Airflo Tactical Taper for summer, if Cortland is not to your taste.
Monic > Precision,
RIO > The LightLine
SA > Nothing, I could find
And yes, always look at the weight.
I am still fishing your 5wt, and using a Cortland 333 or 444 DT. I find the issue you have identified is hideous (worst) on Saltwater Rods and Lines. In Spey casting, many casters play around with the weight (and shape) to reflects casting preference.
In the past few years, I have been spending more effort to understand weight and profile, and apply it to my "want". It is interesting, I recently blog about this, and I added another issue. The shape of the head is more about casting, than fishing. Id est, the profile is good at launching the fly, but poor for mending and presentation.
https://raspberryfisher.wordpress.com/2 ... and-reels/
I came to the conclusion, I would look at Cortland in the future (444SL or UltraLight), but as I stated in the blog, there are few good alternatives if we are pursuing fishing versus casting. So what other alternates are there, other than Cortland?
Airflo > Airflo Tactical Taper for summer, if Cortland is not to your taste.
Monic > Precision,
RIO > The LightLine
SA > Nothing, I could find
And yes, always look at the weight.
Last edited by RaspberryPatch on 08/22/21 11:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: You all kidding me?
#26They won't change. Confusion sells more product.
North American & National Champion Taxidermist
Specializing in "Catch and Release" fish mounts
Custom Bamboo & fiberglass Rods
http://www.prairiedrifter.com
Specializing in "Catch and Release" fish mounts
Custom Bamboo & fiberglass Rods
http://www.prairiedrifter.com
Re: You all kidding me?
#27Trial and error has been the only way I have found the "right" fly line for my creek and small stream rods. The taper is just as critical as the line weight for these small stream rods and while I can read the specs on the label, I never know for sure what's best for a given rod until I have tried various lines on it. An expensive way to find a marriage between rod and line, but because of getting the right line for a rod is so sweet, worth it for me.
Re: You all kidding me?
#28Fair point.
Re: You all kidding me?
#29If I were to place blame, it would be on the carbon fiber rod makers. The industry, starting around the late nineties, became obsessed with rods that would cast a line 90 or more feet. The tradeshows all started having casting lanes with water, rails down the sides, and a rail at the end of the lane, out there at 90 feet or more.
Then Sage and others would introduce their new super-high modulus tack-driver ultralight wow-wee rod, and other companies would follow suit.
The shows would have casting contests with all the hot distance casters, and the new super-duper five-weight or whatever would have to hold up and deliver a fly with a three inch loop, over the rail at 90 or 100 feet, to the applause of the on-lookers.
If a rod didn’t hold up to that distance….ooooh bad.
So then the winning rod gets buzz, the shops buy it. But they needed a line to put on this so-called five that would allow it to fish at…..normal fishing distances—you know, 30 feet.
The shops could explain up-lining, but the concept uplining confuses the crap out of the newbie, “so you mean I put a six weight line on this new 5-weight rod? So then should I get a six-weight rod instead..?” And other such customer conversations.
Remedy: make a heavy line that will bend the so-called five weight rod. “Here, put this ‘magnum 5-weight’ on your new super-duper carbon fiber rod”.
Problem solved. Every line maker followed because they wanted their lines on the Uber-distance casting rods.
The rod makers started all this—And the fools that thought that casting over a rail at ninety feet determined how a rod fished.
Then Sage and others would introduce their new super-high modulus tack-driver ultralight wow-wee rod, and other companies would follow suit.
The shows would have casting contests with all the hot distance casters, and the new super-duper five-weight or whatever would have to hold up and deliver a fly with a three inch loop, over the rail at 90 or 100 feet, to the applause of the on-lookers.
If a rod didn’t hold up to that distance….ooooh bad.
So then the winning rod gets buzz, the shops buy it. But they needed a line to put on this so-called five that would allow it to fish at…..normal fishing distances—you know, 30 feet.
The shops could explain up-lining, but the concept uplining confuses the crap out of the newbie, “so you mean I put a six weight line on this new 5-weight rod? So then should I get a six-weight rod instead..?” And other such customer conversations.
Remedy: make a heavy line that will bend the so-called five weight rod. “Here, put this ‘magnum 5-weight’ on your new super-duper carbon fiber rod”.
Problem solved. Every line maker followed because they wanted their lines on the Uber-distance casting rods.
The rod makers started all this—And the fools that thought that casting over a rail at ninety feet determined how a rod fished.
Re: You all kidding me?
#30Gee, I wonder how many lines are sold for bamboo fly rods versus carbon fiber rods? Bamboo rod users are not going to "force" anybody to do anything based on sales numbers. I expect there are many, many happy users of the newer, heavier tapers out there in the fishing world. I happen to like slow fairly wimpy carbon fiber rods so the overweight line thing has bothered me for a while.
Re: You all kidding me?
#31My guess would be .001%
There are still some excellent flylines that are true to middle of the spectrum AFFTA standards in grain weights. But from my conversations in the industry, they are the slowest sellers, and are constantly under review.
Recently I’ve found some “power” type tapers that work great on bamboo—but I underline them.
The spey community has solved these types of problems by designating lines and heads in grain-weights. The variety of spey rods and “trout” spey rods when designated in line weights are wildly inconsistent and are really all over the map, and line weights have become meaningless in most cases.
I find myself thinking in grains now on all my bamboo rods.
And my reloading grain scale is very handy.
Re: You all kidding me?
#32Don
Great information! Thanks for the review, as I'm sure that'll help folks out.
Best,
Thomas
Great information! Thanks for the review, as I'm sure that'll help folks out.
Best,
Thomas
Re: You all kidding me?
#33I usually use silk lines but this season I have also, very happily, been using this line with my cane rods.
https://sunrayflyfish.com/collections/f ... ts-dry-fly
These lines are sold by weight rather than AFTM number (see the table towards the bottom of the web page). I bought the #3 which is equivalent to AFTM 4 plus or 5 minus. From the table the #1 is AFTM 3, #2 is exactly AFTM 4 and the #4 is AFTM 5 plus. This is confusing if you try to buy one of these lines without reading the specifications carefully but at least it is honest and informative and you know what weight you are getting.
I checked the weight of the first 30 ft of the line I bought and it was as advertised.
Note: Since I wrote the above, three months ago, the weight table has been removed from the web page. This is a shame.
P.S. (09 April 2023) The weight table is now back again.
https://sunrayflyfish.com/collections/f ... ts-dry-fly
These lines are sold by weight rather than AFTM number (see the table towards the bottom of the web page). I bought the #3 which is equivalent to AFTM 4 plus or 5 minus. From the table the #1 is AFTM 3, #2 is exactly AFTM 4 and the #4 is AFTM 5 plus. This is confusing if you try to buy one of these lines without reading the specifications carefully but at least it is honest and informative and you know what weight you are getting.
I checked the weight of the first 30 ft of the line I bought and it was as advertised.
Note: Since I wrote the above, three months ago, the weight table has been removed from the web page. This is a shame.
P.S. (09 April 2023) The weight table is now back again.
Last edited by Godfroy on 04/09/23 17:56, edited 2 times in total.
Re: You all kidding me?
#34I have a 406 DT in both 4, and 6 wt. They are exactly 120 & 160 grains for the first 30'. My 444 Peach 4 wts are both overweight but not by the same amount. I've misplaced my notes so I can't give the exact figures.twistedtippet wrote: ↑08/11/21 09:40I've been using the 406 DT lines since they came out and have found them spot on as far as weight goes. Also the finish seems to stay clean longer than some other lines I've used in the past. (note: made by Sci.Ang.) I'm rather fussy about lines and this is the first line I've really liked since Sci.Anglers discontinued their Expert Presentation line some year ago.
tt
Found 'em.
444 Peach DT4F 126 &130.
Orvis Hydros DT5F 150
Cortland Sylk DT6F 152
444 DT6F 171
Re: You all kidding me?
#35In my recent experience you cannot always trust what the manufacturers/sellers of lines say on their own websites. I was recently researching options for a sink tip and found a line on the US Orvis site that looked like it might work for me. Then checked out their UK site (because that is where I am currently) and found it listed the same line with a different head length and sink rate, and without the helpful profile diagram the US site has. At least the UK people corrected the head length and sink rate information when I questioned it.
Re: You all kidding me?
#36Hi Guys, I write the rod weight and length on the rod. The tag has a place for line weight on which I write something. I talk to the buyer.
Jay Edwards
Jay Edwards
Last edited by bluesjay on 11/24/21 14:01, edited 1 time in total.
Re: You all kidding me?
#37I figured out in the early 90’s that fly line weights varied enough to matter by working in fly shops and trying a bunch of lines and noticing how a particular rod would cast better or worse with different lines. So I bought a precision scale and kept track.
I’m the late 90’s to mid 2000’s rods were getting way stiffer and lines heavier. Brook’s retelling of the situation and the why of it is stated perfectly above. I was in the middle of all that and was one of the guys hitting the rail at 90 ft. It all seems ridiculous now.
By 2010, most fly shops didn’t carry rods I wanted to fish. I gave up completely on newer graphite. Fly lines started averaging 1 line weight too heavy. So I switched to silk and rarely fished graphite any more except older models that are true to the ratings.
The one thing that hasn’t changed is I still weigh my silk lines so I understand what I’m dealing with and I cast several lines until I find the sweet spot with a particular rod.
So obviously as you have pointed out your customer just doesn’t have the right line. It’s not a unique situation my guess is with the state of the tackle industry a lot of people have both the wrong rod and the wrong line.
John
Ps I’m now fishing graphite again. CTS affinity x and mx rods in 0 to 2 wt at 9.5 to 11 ft. They cast silk in the 1 to 3 wt range
beautifully and handle big trout. They do things I couldn’t possibly do with bamboo. Most of the rods on the rack at the fly shop are still 2 to 3 line weights too heavy over what people would really enjoy with the right line.
I’m the late 90’s to mid 2000’s rods were getting way stiffer and lines heavier. Brook’s retelling of the situation and the why of it is stated perfectly above. I was in the middle of all that and was one of the guys hitting the rail at 90 ft. It all seems ridiculous now.
By 2010, most fly shops didn’t carry rods I wanted to fish. I gave up completely on newer graphite. Fly lines started averaging 1 line weight too heavy. So I switched to silk and rarely fished graphite any more except older models that are true to the ratings.
The one thing that hasn’t changed is I still weigh my silk lines so I understand what I’m dealing with and I cast several lines until I find the sweet spot with a particular rod.
So obviously as you have pointed out your customer just doesn’t have the right line. It’s not a unique situation my guess is with the state of the tackle industry a lot of people have both the wrong rod and the wrong line.
John
Ps I’m now fishing graphite again. CTS affinity x and mx rods in 0 to 2 wt at 9.5 to 11 ft. They cast silk in the 1 to 3 wt range
beautifully and handle big trout. They do things I couldn’t possibly do with bamboo. Most of the rods on the rack at the fly shop are still 2 to 3 line weights too heavy over what people would really enjoy with the right line.
Re: You all kidding me?
#38While personal casting style and technique enter into the equation as well, I couldn’t agree more with the comments above. This past summer I had the opportunity to cast an expensive 9 foot rod, rated by the manufacturer for a #6 line. The owner was full of joy at having a 6 wt. rod that “….can easily handle big salmon”. I tried it first with his reel and line and thought the rod was underlined , at least for me. It turned out to be one of those + lines, marked 7 (as the owner eventually conceded) but closer to an 8. I put on one of my own reels with an 8/9 line and, again, for me at least, that was about right. I have no doubt that a very good caster could indeed use that rod with a #6 WF line, but it certainly wasn’t ideal. Marketing has a lot to answer for!
Re: You all kidding me?
#39Small stream man here. Only time I get out 80’ of line is when I release it downstream to get out twists….
Re: You all kidding me?
#40I agree about the distance thing getting ridiculous. If the fly shows were doing it right, they would set up an accuracy course on water at 30 to 50 feet and the guys that could put a fly in something the size of teacup, over and over, would have, should have, the bragging rights. Only once in the last 20 years have I caught a fish at 70 feet and it was because I was taking out slack as the line was dropping and the fish took the fly as it touched the water. Most of my tailwater fish have always been 35 to 45 feet and sometimes at 50 with a swung wet. Distance is only as good as your setting reflexes and your accuracy.