<()))>< Considering Moving

[BigTJ]

I saw on CBS Sunday Morning some months ago that Wisconsin is also supposedly the must bulletproof location in the US to the effects of global warming. So you can check that box too while you are at it!

[crowebeetle]

State College Pa, area in the heart of great trout streams. College town if you like those, good medical care, grouse, deer, and bear hunting. Not too far from Letort. Several local fly shops.

[nativebrownie]

Best of luck - as you know, 'tis all priorities... Agree, as posted above. A good sized city with moderate weather - live on the outskirts... Plenty of golf and tennis possibilities (maybe almost year round - is here), plenty of good, cheap food (international, if you like), too much to do (much of that free - concerts and such), varied choices on housing... Your trout will be a short drive - and , if you can camp or stay away for a weekend, excellent trout water can be available. Grouse will be tougher...I should be retired, but there are too many interesting part time/contract work possibilities in metro areas...

[Greg Reynolds]

The Pennsylvania ruffed grouse population collapsed starting in about 2002 with the arrival of west nile virus. There are birds, but it's spotty.

https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/Wildlif ... Poster.pdf

[BigTJ]

How crowded are those PA rivers? I was under the impression it was in the ‘bring your own rock’ category. The rivers and hatches seem pretty phenomenal. My local rivers I usually have the water to myself might see 1 or 2 people a day, even on weekends.

[Hellmtflies]

The Pennsylvania ruffed grouse population collapsed starting in about 2002 with the arrival of west nile virus. There are birds, but it's spotty.

https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/Wildlif ... Poster.pdf

I've heard this too. Seems like the entire eastern ruffed grouse habitats are suffering the same issue. All the way down into the Smokies.

[Recurve1]

How crowded are those PA rivers? I was under the impression it was in the ‘bring your own rock’ category. The rivers and hatches seem pretty phenomenal. My local rivers I usually have the water to myself might see 1 or 2 people a day, even on weekends.

Then they can be very crowded relative to what you are used to, especially after stocking. Fished an Erie trib for steelhead earlier this week and the crowding starts first with parking - finding a spot can be a challenge in some areas. Then finding a place with fish - some holes had 6-8 folks surrounding them, sometimes more. Usually a long walk will get you to some open water but with fewer, if any, fish. I generally walk and "hunt" for fish in water others are not fishing. Fortunately most of the guys are very friendly, willing to share info on flies, tactics, bait, etc and good folks to just talk with during the day.
The trout streams can be "take a number" during some big name hatches and you need to be on the stream by early afternoon at the latest to reserve your spot for a hatch at dusk.
Then again there are places where you can have some water to yourself.

[crowebeetle]

I have not found Penns, Big Fishing, or Spring Creeks crowded except during the Green Drake hatch on Penns. Even then it was not "combat" fishing. There are numerous smaller brookie streams that get little pressure. And the lower sections so Penns has great small mouth fishing as does the Juniata and Susquehanna Rivers. The grouse population has been hit perhaps it will rebound. Check the game commission for more current information.

[GerardH]

Taking this thread one more degree off topic, WNV is perhaps a contributor to the downturn of the grouse population out east but maturing forests most likely have a much bigger long-term impact on grouse. Another issue is some states having their hunting season run into February...birds that survive after fall dispersal of broods tend to be the breeding stock the following spring. I think WNV is a bit of a red herring -- have you noticed a huge drop in other avian populations, corvid species in particular that have been noted to extremely susceptible to WNV? Disagreeable spring weather affecting nesting success is another season-to-season factor.

[crowebeetle]

I wouldn't call WNV a red herring but a significant contributor to decrease in appropriate habitat which is a major effect. Here is an interesting article discussing both issues. https://ruffedgrousesociety.org/the-sci ... ed-grouse/

[GerardH]

In my preface, I allowed WNV is perhaps a factor but the eastern grouse population has been in a freefall going back to the days of George Bird Evans -- predating the virus. You add up all factors when the population is hanging on by a thread and yeah, WNV perhaps kicks the stool out from under the species viability. We've had WNV at least since 2001 in the western Great Lakes states (WI, MN, MI) and the respective states' DNR have been trying to establish a hard link between reduced bird harvest and the virus and there hasn't been anything conclusive established for the population downturn. However, what we do know is with reduced aspen harvest, there has been less preferred habitat for grouse and other species dependent on early successional forest (woodcock, whippoorwill, snowshoe hare, and many songbird species) have had measurable declines.

[Greg Reynolds]

Taking this thread one more degree off topic, WNV is perhaps a contributor to the downturn of the grouse population out east but maturing forests most likely have a much bigger long-term impact on grouse. Another issue is some states having their hunting season run into February...birds that survive after fall dispersal of broods tend to be the breeding stock the following spring. I think WNV is a bit of a red herring -- have you noticed a huge drop in other avian populations, corvid species in particular that have been noted to extremely susceptible to WNV? Disagreeable spring weather affecting nesting success is another season-to-season factor.

No disrespect intended, but you couldn't be more wrong. Although I'm no longer hunting ruffed grouse because of WNV, I remain a ruffed grouse cooperator for the Pennsylvania Game Commision.

The 2021 cooperators' newsletter:





The correlation between WNV and the grouse population collapse in the eastern U. S. was first established in a study conceived & managed by PAGC biologist Lisa Williams, the author of the newsletter above. Cooperators collected eggs for the study and provided carcasses, blood samples and feathers for subsequent monitoring.

I hunted superb cover and typically had much higher than average SWPA flush rates until WNV decimated the ruffed grouse population. I'm a good wing-shot and was successful. After a few years of WNV, hunting became a quiet walk through a covert with an occasional flush. I didn't think it was ethical to continue shooting the few birds that remained and I decided to stop until things improved. I didn't expect that WNV would effectively end bird hunting for me. I shot my last bird in 2007 a mile from my house. It's a loss that's caused me a huge amount of sadness.

At 67 I'm aging out, but I'm hoping to resume bird hunting in 2022 for a few more seasons. I don't believe that I'll be shooting anymore birds though.

Sorry to take this thread even more off-subject...

[GerardH]

No disrespect intended, but you couldn't be more wrong.

I respectfully disagree. My contention was the most important factor in grouse numbers was habitat. Everything else is a contributing factor but distracts from what's the most important component. Habitat. Without that, you don't have grouse -- with or without WNV.


MADISON, Wis. (WKBT) — Ruffed grouse are being exposed to the West Nile Virus but are surviving and flushing the virus out of their bodies, according to a surveillance project.
Blood samples collected from ruffed grouse that hunters harvested in 2019 indicate that 20% of the samples submitted from Wisconsin had antibodies consistent with West Nile exposure, according to the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources.
Of these samples, 9% showed confirmed WNV and 11% showed likely exposure, the DNR reported Wednesday after receiving the 2019 test results from the second year of the ruffed grouse West Nile Virus (WNV) surveillance project.

None of the 188 samples had evidence of the virus present in their hearts, according to the results.
“These findings indicate that, while ruffed grouse are being exposed to WNV, there are birds that are surviving and clearing the virus from their bodies,” said Alaina Gerrits, assistant upland game ecologist.
Humans also can be infected with the West Nile Virus, which mosquitoes spread. However, 80 percent do not develop any symptoms, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
About 1 in 5 people who are infected develop a fever with other symptoms such as headache, body aches, joint pains, vomiting, diarrhea or rash, the CDC says.
“Most people with this type of West Nile Virus disease recover completely, but fatigue and weakness can last for weeks or months,” according to the CDC
About 1 in 150 infected people develop a severe illness affecting the central nervous system such as encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) or meningitis (inflammation of the membranes that surround the brain and spinal cord), the CDC says.
The multi-year ruffed grouse study aims to provide biologists with more information about West Nile exposure and infection in the birds in the western Great Lakes region.
Ruffed grouse harvested in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan during the 2019 hunting season were sent to the Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study in Athens, Ga., to be analyzed.
“We are grateful to the passionate grouse hunters of Wisconsin who took the time to submit samples from their harvested birds,” Gerrits said. “Without their support, this study would not be possible.”
Hunter-submitted samples underwent two types of testing to help determine if the birds were exposed to WNV:
• One test sought traces of viral genetic material in heart tissue.
• A blood test aimed to determine whether the grouse had developed an immune response from exposure to the virus.
Similar to humans, ruffed grouse can develop antibodies as an immune response to viruses they encounter. When the body fights off WNV, these antibodies can be found in the blood.
Hunters who submitted samples and provided contact information will be provided test results via email as soon as possible — regardless of whether results were negative or positive.
In 2018, 29% of the 235 samples submitted had antibodies to WNV either confirmed or likely, and two had evidence of the virus present in their hearts. Both of these birds also had developed antibodies to the virus and the results do not directly indicate these two birds were sick at the time of harvest.
The study may help identify future research needs in Wisconsin, such as a potential survival study to investigate sources of mortality, with WNV being one of many stressors examined.
West Nile Virus’s effects on birds can vary. Signs can range from no clinical disease or illness to heart lesions and inflammation of the brain, the lining of the brain and of the spinal cord.
Many factors can influence how severely the virus affects an individual bird. There is no evidence that it can be spread by handling dead birds or by consuming properly cooked game.
In Michigan, West Nile Virus exposure from 2019 samples was detected in 8% of the 247 ruffed grouse blood samples with exposure to the virus either confirmed (7% or 3%) or likely (13% or 6%). Viral genetic material was found in one heart sample.
In Minnesota, exposure was detected in 12% of the 317 blood samples submitted. Exposure to the virus either confirmed (3% or 1%) or likely (36% or 11%). Viral genetic material was not found in any of the Minnesota heart samples.

https://www.news8000.com/ruffed-grouse- ... udy-finds/

"Continued efforts to maintain and create the quality young forest habitat that ruffed grouse rely on is our best tool to sustain our healthy grouse population in Wisconsin," said Gerrits. "Quality habitat will help ruffed grouse better handle impacts from stressors such as disease or weather."


https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/newsroom/release/44636

Sorry to take this thread even more off-subject...

As am I. Carry on.

[BigTJ]

Fascinating subject. Feel your pain guys. The OP did talk about ruffed grouse on the list so not really that off topic


Thanks for the info on PA streams. Won’t be moving there but have a lot of family history and would like to visit sometime.

John

[Greg Reynolds]

No disrespect intended, but you couldn't be more wrong.

I respectfully disagree. My contention was the most important factor in grouse numbers was habitat. Everything else is a contributing factor but distracts from what's the most important component. Habitat. Without that, you don't have grouse--with or without WNV...

Every serious ruffed grouse hunter understands that stong bird populations require large areas of young cover. Habitat is the primary driver. However, as PAGC biologist Lisa Williams explains in the article linked by Crowebeetle above, that even in prime habitat, birds with WNV are in a weakened state and tend not to survive the winter.

The problem with the point your making is that WNV decimated the entire PA grouse population over a very short period of time--a few years. Birds in marginal cover are mostly gone and far fewer remain each season to repopulate prime cover. The entire state was affected in this short time frame and habitant loss doesn't occur that rapidly or explain it.

I'm sorry to disrupt this thread yet again and I won't do it anymore.

[Hellmtflies]

Thank you everyone. I will plug all of this into the moving equation. We've narrowed the options down. Ruled out the SW as there are way too many issues with water supply there and we don't care for the desert environment. Ruled out the north central part of the country as it's too cold for us. Ruled out the NE as there doesn't seem to hold what we are looking for and the weather is spotty in winter. I hate damp winters. So, the options are New Zealand, Poland or Scotland. Just kidding, though my wife would move to those places. We have decided to either stay where we are and put up with the crushing development and destroyed recourses or the SE. Yea, it's F'en humid there but we can fish and play golf there ten months out of the year as opposed to only five months here in Mt. and we can get out of the humidity there in summer by spending July and August in Mt. to fish when the smoke isn't so bad. (The smoke last summer was killer for weeks.) So, we are looking to be somewhere between the GSNP and the Shenandoa NP. And, yes, there is ruffed grouse hunting there too.

[pete from mass]

Just one more thought.
I am officially old now and I’m finding the world I live in today to be very very different from what I grew up in. I live in Massachusetts and my stomping grounds are all over New England (with a special concentration in northern Maine (Allagash), western Mass, cape cod, and north shore of Mass.. I love both fresh and saltwater) And a lot of time around Ithaca New York (Cornell).

I’ve noticed in Mass there were once places I could bring my 4 wheel drive truck to fishing spots asa kid, those spots are all shut down now, town and state officials have shut them down (chains and gates) or new developments have simply taken over the area.

We had a house by the water on the Cape (Eastham) for a few decades but we recently sold it. The life we once new no longer existed there… for us it was a meddling heavy handed town Government.

We have been noticing that places that where once very nice and simple (and published as nice) have been corrupted.
While places that where once thought of as less desirable are now enjoying a rebirth.

We bought another house on the cape in a place that was once considered a lousy place..
Now it’s overlooked by buyers. It’s heaven being able to walk onto the beach with the dog, set up a chair and umbrella and sit back and relax. I was fascinated that the other people on this little point keep a low profile and don’t talk it up.. nobody wants a light turned onto this area.

My son in law is from mt pleasant, SC and he talks about how much that area has changed.
He and my daughter moved to Alabama and they found a place that reminded him of the old Mt Pleasant.

I think real estate today may be counterintuitive…places that were once considered nice have been corrupted by popularity
And places that were once overlooked now have there own charm.

As an extreme example, my grandparents were exiled to Siberia. Today, I wonder what it would be like fishing and living up there.

Anyway , just sharing a rambling thought… good luck in your search.

[Hellmtflies]

Here it is in a nutshell.....Guess I'm not alone in this.

[wineslob]

I moved to N. Idaho just over a year ago. At the time (2021) we were lucky enough to:

Look at homes in the under 300K range.
Decided to have a home built for well under the 300K.
However, in one short year home prices have blown up, we bought our home on the road while moving (Dec), and had already "made" 100K on it!
There are still "cheap" homes in our area, but that's compared to other high priced areas.
While locals "blame" Californians' the real blame is on the builders who are building as fast as possible.

[Heddon20]

"OK" I know this may seem odd but after sixteen years in Bozeman, Mt. my better half and I are considering moving. "Boze Angeles" has become completely blown out. It's over here. Not the town I was introduced to in the early eighties. Way too many people and development. Development here has become explosive. Developers are crushing this place. The costs are off the charts. An example is the fact that our home has more than doubled in value in just eight years. Taxes and traffic too. The loss of that small town feel have caused us to consider a move. I mean it has gotten off the charts here. The recourses like fishing, hunting, hiking, skiing etc. are being overrun. It no longer is " The Last Best Place".
So, we are considering getting the heck outta here. Now, the question is where to go? The place must be a town smaller than 20,000 with a warmer climate that has trout fishing, grouse hunting and a good golf course in close proximity. We have a condo in N.C. but too far east from trout etc. So, give me a few ideas folks. Where to go? The place needs to be able to accept a couple that is completely retired and older than middle age, has a steady income, though modest, and lean to a moderate demographic. Ideas? Suggestions? Thoughts? Let me know.
Thanx! Mark

Have you considered Libby? The population is <15000, has good trout fishing and grouse huntug, and there are good golf courses nearby. It's located in the "Banana Belt" of MT so winters there are not extremely cold.