Thanks for the data Bearbutt. Mr Stewart’s caliper seem to be off a bit. 0.48 mm +/- seems to be about a standard 1xf sz 12 hook wire, confirming my suspicions. I definitely need to get that book. FWIW I was trained as an engineer but I’m a water guy so I know enough to be dangerous that’s it.
On the practical side of things I am starting to shy away from the super light wire hooks even on spring creeks. They don’t seem to land upright as consistently as the standard or heavier wire hooks. Just another trade off worth mulling over on a winter’s day at the bench.
Old Partridge hook
Moderators: Ken M 44, joaniebo
Re: Old Partridge hook
#22I don't know, his measurements are slightly finer than Partridge's own--where the E1A size 12 is cited as being .51 in diameter:
I'm not sure what you are basing the notion of "a standard 1xf sz 12 hook" on--can you clarify? It's interesting that the Redditch scale for hook sizing, introduced after WW2, makes no mention of wire sizes. In his chapter on "The hook problem" in What the Trout Said, Datus Proger discusses, shank length, gape, and weight, but not so much wire diameters. It's pretty much an open topic.
Stewart's book is the best hook reference book I know. Also good is the crowd-sourced data accumulating at https://flyhooks.org/
Cheers,
bb
Re: Old Partridge hook
#23Bearbutt,
Standard means industry standard I.e. if you measure 1xf hooks from say 12 manufacturers and they are all using .48 mm +/- a bit
that means that’s the industry-standard 1xf. That’s been my point the entire thread.
I also don’t think wire size is much of an “open topic”. Most quality modern hooks say if the wire is standard, 1xf, 1x heavy, etc and that’s been the case since the early 80’s when I started tying, about 40 years. I visually compare it mic hooks from different manufactures so I know what I’m dealing with. Most of the time it’s pretty consistent but in the case of this particular hook the rating is way out of line with other manufacturers.
I’m sort of confused why you posted those charts. Didn’t you measure the Partridge so 12 4xf hooks at 0.48 mm, not 0.51? I got the same thing with the Tuemco 100’s. Stewart saw d 0.51 I got 0.48 mm. Maybe I’m just not following. Regardless after all the info in this thread it’s clear the Partridge 4xf hook is equivalent to everybody else’s 1xf which is what I’ve been saying all along.
Standard means industry standard I.e. if you measure 1xf hooks from say 12 manufacturers and they are all using .48 mm +/- a bit
that means that’s the industry-standard 1xf. That’s been my point the entire thread.
I also don’t think wire size is much of an “open topic”. Most quality modern hooks say if the wire is standard, 1xf, 1x heavy, etc and that’s been the case since the early 80’s when I started tying, about 40 years. I visually compare it mic hooks from different manufactures so I know what I’m dealing with. Most of the time it’s pretty consistent but in the case of this particular hook the rating is way out of line with other manufacturers.
I’m sort of confused why you posted those charts. Didn’t you measure the Partridge so 12 4xf hooks at 0.48 mm, not 0.51? I got the same thing with the Tuemco 100’s. Stewart saw d 0.51 I got 0.48 mm. Maybe I’m just not following. Regardless after all the info in this thread it’s clear the Partridge 4xf hook is equivalent to everybody else’s 1xf which is what I’ve been saying all along.
Re: Old Partridge hook
#24But have you done that? I don't see anywhere a published consensus on this. Just assuming it may be so doesn't make it so. This was the whole point Datus Proper was trying to make forty years ago.
Because I'm trying to show the reality of concrete measurements, both those cited by manufacturers and those measured by others. The only thing demonstrated so far is that there's no historical "industry standard"--there may have been a Partridge standard, but theirs wasn't a Mustad standard or anybody else's. We're not talking about "modern" hooks to use your phrase, but very specific time periods in hook making history: hooks made in the aftermath of WW2 to the 1970s.
bb
Re: Old Partridge hook
#25Yes Bearbutt I have measured hooks from many different manufacturers over the years. I’m not just assuming it, I’m deducing it from experience and data gained from 40 years of tying. And the 1xf hooks I have used have all pretty much been in line with each other, as confirmed by all the measurement made in this thread. Do you have any more data from that Stewart book to add? I don’t have data from 12 manufactures it’s more like 7 but I think you get the point. I wouldn’t have posted in the first place just from looking at the pictures you can see 4xf Partridge hooks are the same diameter most everybody else’s 1x. If they were really 4xf I’d expect them to be something like 0.40 mm. Maybe we could get others to measure a bunch of other brands of hooks it would be interesting to see. Personally I think calling the E1A 4xf is misleading, especially in light of the measurements you provided, but it’s sort of moot the company is out of business anyway from what I heard.
One last thing to help you understand why I am scratching my head. You have a hook that you measured at 0.48 mm and the chart is wrong, say 0.51 mm, but it’s the chart that is concrete reality? That chart is just a chart. They sometimes have typos or use data from older production runs. Accurately and precisely measuring a hook is reality and the only basis I will ever use to compare wire diameter of different hooks.
I’ve made my point time for me to move along.
John
One last thing to help you understand why I am scratching my head. You have a hook that you measured at 0.48 mm and the chart is wrong, say 0.51 mm, but it’s the chart that is concrete reality? That chart is just a chart. They sometimes have typos or use data from older production runs. Accurately and precisely measuring a hook is reality and the only basis I will ever use to compare wire diameter of different hooks.
I’ve made my point time for me to move along.
John
Re: Old Partridge hook
#26They're not out of business, by any means:
https://partridgeusa.com/
https://partridge-of-redditch.co.uk/
What I find missing from your argument is actual data of hooks from the same time period. I'm not interested in guesstimates.
The "standard" 94840 I posted is .535mm. The "standard" Bergman Blue Label is .55 The Partridge is .48mm. That's a big difference, and not hypothetical.
bb
Re: Old Partridge hook
#27Yes I see their website is active but that is often the case for companies that are either out of business or not really doing much. They were bought out by Mustad some time back, moved their production to Asia, dumped a lot of hooks that made them famous, and they are carried by so few stores any more it’s hard to tell what is up. I heard for all intents and purposes they are dead in the water. The only reliable mail order source I know is Dette flies. Maybe somebody will chime in with the latest but I wouldn’t bet on their long-term presence in the industry I think most shops are working through their current inventory.
I’m not going to argue over these hooks any more. Maybe some others are picking up the gist of what I’m saying and got some benefit - basically if you stumble across these hooks and think you are going to get a lot finer wire than the rest of the 1xf hooks you will be disappointed. No ill will meant at all, all the best to you, I’m just done flogging the horse.
John
I’m not going to argue over these hooks any more. Maybe some others are picking up the gist of what I’m saying and got some benefit - basically if you stumble across these hooks and think you are going to get a lot finer wire than the rest of the 1xf hooks you will be disappointed. No ill will meant at all, all the best to you, I’m just done flogging the horse.
John
Re: Old Partridge hook
#28I dropped the question at Partridge UK.
Havent heard anything yet but hopefully I'll get a response.
If I do I'll let you know.
Thanks guys so far. Always enjoy the knowledge and camaraderie
Havent heard anything yet but hopefully I'll get a response.
If I do I'll let you know.
Thanks guys so far. Always enjoy the knowledge and camaraderie
Re: Old Partridge hook
#29Thanks - I hope I was wrong about them being more or less done. L4A is discontinued. Partridge lists one trout dry fly hook model on their website, L5A, standard wire hook.
They supposedly have a barbless hook line but the link to it seems broken.
They supposedly have a barbless hook line but the link to it seems broken.
