Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

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mlarocco
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#21

Post by mlarocco »

50 years ago they tried luring anglers to Argentina with a slogan like "It's Montana 50 Years Ago". One only has to visit West Yellowstone, Kalispel, Missoula, Helena etc... to see a long history of growth. If a person isn't a 3rd generation Montanan the you are probably part of the problem. But it's not a Montana only problem as people in traditional rural areas. Idaho, Oregon, Nevada, Washington have all see drastic changes due to populations surging.

Developer's see hot spots and build. "Build It and They Will Come". Can be hard for a rural property owner squeaking by financially to throw away that developer's lottery check when he waves it in their faces. During a recent winter weather event I was walking down hill and came across a 3rd generation Tree Farm owner out repairing his log loader. A 20 acre lot downhill of his 100 was bought and being developed for a doctor. The guy is sitting on millions of dollars of real estate, probably shops at Walmart and drives an older model vehicle. I asked him if he had any plans on sub-dividing and selling parts of his farm. At 80 with local children he was happy. The $$ was not important. Good news as even the local builds on 5 acre lots contribute to the urbanization the area is going through. But who knows what his children will do with it when he passes. Kids college educations, medical bills, a large home in a different location etc... all reasons to sell.

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Hellmtflies
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#22

Post by Hellmtflies »

nativebrownie wrote:
01/16/22 21:52
Sorta sad that you all are so bummed out on where you live - not the way to fly...
Feel lucky, just was talking to another player after a morning tennis group last Friday. Both of us laughed and said how lucky we were to live here - we listed many reasons, many... Great feeling to feel so comfortable with "others" and with so much to do that is just the way to live - at least for us...
Enjoy a large eastern metro city/suburbs - fits our "perspective" - and as all is fully "developed," the developers are paving over green fields elsewhere...
Yea, my thinking has been to move to a place that's already crushed, and I won't have to watch as this one explodes. :)

PYochim
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#23

Post by PYochim »

mlarocco wrote:
01/17/22 09:19
A 20 acre lot downhill of his 100 was bought and being developed for a doctor.
How does this person's chosen profession enter into this?

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Brooks
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#24

Post by Brooks »

PYochim wrote:
01/17/22 11:23
mlarocco wrote:
01/17/22 09:19
A 20 acre lot downhill of his 100 was bought and being developed for a doctor.
How does this person's chosen profession enter into this?
It is a prejudicial statement, like saying “developed by a Californian” or “developed by a Texan”, and its a prejudicial point of view that I am very guilty of, and could relate to immediately. Several of the most ostentatious and poorly placed properties on the Big Hole, MT, (in my opinion), have been built by Doctors (take that bizarre long skinny weird place right on the river a ways downstream from Wise River for example. Or the big place in the flood zone below East Bank).

Its not fair to to say “developed by a Doctor”, but for me, it painted a picture that sure seems to ring true.

I’ll start paying attention to venture capitalist developments to be fair. These developments are nobody’s fault really. It’s a person’s right to purchase property and build.
Doesn’t mean its not sad.

mlarocco
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#25

Post by mlarocco »

How does this person's chosen profession enter into this?
I have nothing against doctors, they have saved my life on at least one occasion.

I was just trying to 'frame' the current South West WA land grab. When I moved to the area (yes, I am part of the problem) the two major regional employers were the logging and recreational fishing industries. As the word continued to get out about the rural community in commuting distance of Vancouver/Portland housing demand went up. Long time residents were selling lots close to the major interstate (I5) and developers started placing houses on 8000 square foot lots. The value of an acre of land sky rocketed. Places further off the highway became less affordable to the long time locals and the professionals making more $$$ started moving in. All of a sudden the demographics started changing significantly, from high school educated (maybe) working class to college educated professionals. Now there is a Walmart, SafeWay, Ace Hardware and mini malls that previously been pasture lands (similar to what happened to the corridor between Kalispel and Whitefish).

I pointed out that the property owner was a doctor (true) to emphasize the changing life styles in the region. It could have been a tech professional or someone cashing out of even more expensive areas like CA, Seattle or Portland.

PYochim
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#26

Post by PYochim »

Thanks for the clarification.
Last edited by PYochim on 01/18/22 18:15, edited 1 time in total.

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DrLogik
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#27

Post by DrLogik »

One can always lament about what their particular town/city has become in the last 20 or 30 years. One can move but I think many will find that "Progress" moves in soon after, no matter where that is.

I live in Charlotte North Carolina. We moved here from Ohio in 1977 and Charlotte had a little over 300,000 people back then. In 2021 it had ballooned to 2,132,000. Yes, you read that right, over two million, and it is not slowing down at all.

It's astounding how many people are relocating here from north of the Mason-Dixon Line. Makes me think that in 20 years maybe I should move where they came from since they are all leaving! I do love Upstate New York.

Luckily for Charlotte there is still the sense that we are a Southern town and we don't accept bad behavior. That's been pretty much the case no matter who runs the city. We have crime here but it's by far NOT out of control. As far as cities go, it's a great city to live.

I've spent the last 45 years backpacking, fishing and hunting in the back country mountains that I thought I had covered every single cool place to go. Not even close. Yes, a lot of land has been purchased in the North Carolina mountains also, but there are still a lot of very large areas of undeveloped forest...hundreds of square miles at a time. There are hundreds and hundreds of Trout streams in those areas both big and small.

Do I wish that the development here would stop? Yes. Will it? Oh heck no. This is going on in every single "Nice" place to live in America. Nashville or Knoxville? Same. Asheville, Boone or Brevard? Same. Asheville in particular has changed dramatically as far as size, but the flavor of the city hasn't, which is a good thing. It's always been bohemian and artsy-fartsy, but now it has phenomenally good eats.

Now you kids get off my lawn!! :lol

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Drossi
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#28

Post by Drossi »

I never could understand why people who leave urban areas cause they are crappy then complain when they move to rural areas because they aren't like the crappy urban areas that they left behind. Then they begin to try and change things in the rural areas they moved to so that they are like the crappy areas they moved in from.

Saw this 40-45 years ago when suburban NYC expanded westward through northern NJ and into the Poconos.

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Hellmtflies
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#29

Post by Hellmtflies »

Drossi wrote:
01/18/22 17:11
I never could understand why people who leave urban areas cause they are crappy then complain when they move to rural areas because they aren't like the crappy urban areas that they left behind. Then they begin to try and change things in the rural areas they moved to so that they are like the crappy areas they moved in from.

Saw this 40-45 years ago when suburban NYC expanded westward through northern NJ and into the Poconos.
Well.....there's simply way too many people in the world. In just my lifetime, I'm 64, we have gone from 200 million to well over 300 million people in this country alone. Sad.

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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#30

Post by PYochim »

Brooks wrote:
01/17/22 11:46
Its not fair to to say “developed by a Doctor”, but for me, it painted a picture that sure seems to ring true.
And what picture is that? Would it be a different picture if it had been developed by an accountant or teacher or lawyer? Just curious.

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Brooks
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#31

Post by Brooks »

PYochim wrote:
01/18/22 18:17
Brooks wrote:
01/17/22 11:46
Its not fair to to say “developed by a Doctor”, but for me, it painted a picture that sure seems to ring true.
And what picture is that? Would it be a different picture if it had been developed by an accountant or teacher or lawyer? Just curious.
As I stated earlier, there are some ostentatious properties built on the Big Hole. Built by Doctors. If they had been built by accountants, I would most likely develope a similar (unfair) prejudice. I’m not rationalizing my prejudice (or “picture”), I’m just documenting it.

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Flykuni3
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#32

Post by Flykuni3 »

I went through the Boze two years ago, and did not know beforehand that I would be seeing LA. Boy, was I shocked. I remember it years back being so ag and quiet, but now Main st. was hopping on a rainy night, kids going to clubs, even lining up in the rain for the most popular bar in town -- lasers and smoke, pumping tunes, girls in minis (with cowboy boots, ahem, kinda fetching), what's with that cleavage thing?, doing that raise the roof woo woo dancing, even up on a platform, dancin' like look at me, look at me, wheee. Shocking, absolutely some bizarro version of LA in a fevered, rural dream sequence. Man, did I feel old and out of place. More Twilight Zone than the movie Twilight. I found a quieter bar, and sat down among only five others, the Black Label was soothing. Guy poured tall, smiled at me then said, "Yeah, well, the place has gone crazy."

Next day the dinos at the museum were wonderful. Much more my speed, Cretaceous.

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Hellmtflies
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#33

Post by Hellmtflies »

Flykuni3 wrote:
01/18/22 23:49
I went through the Boze two years ago, and did not know beforehand that I would be seeing LA. Boy, was I shocked. I remember it years back being so ag and quiet, but now Main st. was hopping on a rainy night, kids going to clubs, even lining up in the rain for the most popular bar in town -- lasers and smoke, pumping tunes, girls in minis (with cowboy boots, ahem, kinda fetching), what's with that cleavage thing?, doing that raise the roof woo woo dancing, even up on a platform, dancin' like look at me, look at me, wheee. Shocking, absolutely some bizarro version of LA in a fevered, rural dream sequence. Man, did I feel old and out of place. More Twilight Zone than the movie Twilight. I found a quieter bar, and sat down among only five others, the Black Label was soothing. Guy poured tall, smiled at me then said, "Yeah, well, the place has gone crazy."

Next day the dinos at the museum were wonderful. Much more my speed, Cretaceous.
Yea, that scene is a nightly event. Consider this. MSU, Montana State University, in Bozeman has gone from 7,000 students just ten years ago to over 17,000 currently and there is no end in sight. So, what you had seen on the streets that night is a result of sophomoric activity on steroids. :) And I suspect that those "fetching" young ladies in cowboy boots have never seen a real cowboy or know what one is. :-\

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Tim Anderson
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#34

Post by Tim Anderson »

Hellmtflies wrote:
01/19/22 09:17
And I suspect that those "fetching" young ladies in cowboy boots have never seen a real cowboy or know what one is.
My mother (born in 1915) used to laugh about romanticizing cowboys. She remembered from her childhood that the cowboys she knew as a kid in Kansas sewed themselves into their longjohns in the fall and finally took them off in the spring! She claimed their odor did not make them really people she wanted to meet.

As one who has always liked Bozeman, I do find the expansion disconcerting. Yet, many newer residents came for the the outdoor attractions. For example, if memory serves me, you, Hellmtflies, moved there about a decade or so ago.

Tim

mlarocco
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#35

Post by mlarocco »

moved there about a decade or so ago
I think that was one point I was trying to make and failed. When I purchased my property in rural SW Washington 21 years ago the area was already under siege and I was oblivious to the fact that I was part of something bigger. The downtown area consisted of a small grocer, a locals restaurant, couple of divey watering holes and some gas stations. In 21 years housing developments have replaced farm pastures, a Walmart, Ace Hardware and Safeway grocer went in. Mini malls with Starbucks and Taco Bells. There are now traffic lights and rotaries. I don't like it but I am not any different than the other people that relocated here in the past 21 years.

The neighbor that owns the 100 acre tree farm inherited it from his parents. His brother owns a large adjacent lot (where the 20 acres being built came out of). They grew up locally many tears ago. I will never know the loss from their perspective as I am part of the change.

As far as Montana goes the entire state is seeing an influx of people (the state university #'s would support that). So, the farmers, ranchers, loggers, oil field workers, coal miners are seeing changes. Not all change is necessarily bad...

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Hellmtflies
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#36

Post by Hellmtflies »

Tim Anderson wrote:
01/19/22 13:27
Hellmtflies wrote:
01/19/22 09:17
And I suspect that those "fetching" young ladies in cowboy boots have never seen a real cowboy or know what one is.
My mother (born in 1915) used to laugh about romanticizing cowboys. She remembered from her childhood that the cowboys she knew as a kid in Kansas sewed themselves into their longjohns in the fall and finally took them off in the spring! She claimed their odor did not make them really people she wanted to meet.

As one who has always liked Bozeman, I do find the expansion disconcerting. Yet, many newer residents came for the the outdoor attractions. For example, if memory serves me, you, Hellmtflies, moved there about a decade or so ago.

Tim
True, I've been here for 17 years. I purchased property here in 1992. I but I didn't come here to change it. I came here to try to protect it from what happened back in N.J. Guess I failed.

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tomimc1
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#37

Post by tomimc1 »

True, I've been here for 17 years. I purchased property here in 1992. I but I didn't come here to change it. I came here to try to protect it from what happened back in N.J. Guess I failed.
So you bought a place to live, and then.....

Curious how you thought you would be protecting the place by doing so? I mean, unless you bought out some rancher and held the property in whole to prevent it from being sub-divided/developed, what was you plan, exactly? Send TU some dollars, sign some petitions, write letters, volunteer on some projects...you could've easily done that in Jersey....just sayin'.

Do feel you pain though, I watched Carlisle become warehouse distribution central during my 25yrs there as Amazon and others bought up all the local farmland along Rt 81. Land that used to feed the aquifers for the fabled Limestoners of the Cumberland Valley...now paved over and runoff goes straight into the Conodiguinett instead of replenishing those wonderful springs.

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tomimc1
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#38

Post by tomimc1 »

Quick follow up....Google timelapse is an amazing tool, and quite depressing at times:

Carilisle, PA timelapse Watch the warehouses explode in the early 2000's, The quarry on the Letort continuously expanding....similar if you look at Newville and the Big Spring. :'(

bassman
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#39

Post by bassman »

It is a sad but true fact the things that make an area so attractive to people like us are the same things that start developers bringing the area to a saturation level we are uncomfortable with. When I lived in northern St. Paul suburbs I could hit the freeway (I35) north to visit friends in Duluth and not see anything but exit lights from Lexington to Duluth with a couple of exceptions. By the time I escaped 20 years later every intersection from Lexington to Duluth was built up with malls or outlets or just major housing developments. I am now in a small rural town in a nearly empty county in OK and though there are a lot of things we lack one of those things is people. Cheyenne is county seat in Roger Mills and does not have a stoplight in town or county. There are no trout streams but plenty of fishing, free camping, hunting land, and the total property taxes on BOTH of my houses is under $200 total, or less than the small lot landlocked but separate from my home in MN.

Being a long time watcher of every Big Bang Theory episode ever aired there was one years back where Sheldon's apartment was robbed and he decided he was moving and could telecommute for his job. He researched every town in every state and decided factoring in all good things the place for him to move to was Bozeman, MT. He announced he was going to become a Bozite and got on a bus with his suitcase. He showed up in Bozeman during a Blizzard condition snowstorm, was pleased with how nice people were when a young fellow offered to carry his suitcase for him. The guy immediately ran off with his suitcase, Sheldon, cold and shivering, bought a ticket back to Pasadena and so ended his Bozite career.

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cwfly
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Re: Hmmmm... Guess I'm not alone in this.....

#40

Post by cwfly »

bassman wrote:
01/19/22 19:23

Being a long time watcher of every Big Bang Theory episode ever aired there was one years back where Sheldon's apartment was robbed and he decided he was moving and could telecommute for his job. He researched every town in every state and decided factoring in all good things the place for him to move to was Bozeman, MT. He announced he was going to become a Bozite and got on a bus with his suitcase. He showed up in Bozeman during a Blizzard condition snowstorm, was pleased with how nice people were when a young fellow offered to carry his suitcase for him. The guy immediately ran off with his suitcase, Sheldon, cold and shivering, bought a ticket back to Pasadena and so ended his Bozite career.
Are you telling us that you are basing your view of life, and your knowledge of Bozeman MT where my kids and grandchildren live, on TV shows?

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