Sticky silk line
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Re: Sticky silk line
#81Just trying to pluck up the courage to start on the line Jim. Bearing your experience in mind, I think I will steer clear of baking soda.. plan to test a small area with Q Tip and turpentine, to see what comes off, and go from there.
Will need to carefully re- read this thread first..
Malcolm
Will need to carefully re- read this thread first..
Malcolm
Re: Sticky silk line
#82Progress so far..
Hung my sticky Phoenix line full length in the garden and used Turpentine on a cloth to rub, no need to use the fancy artist's stuff I discovered as one of those little bottles will not be enough.
I rubbed the line 5 or 6 times along its length removing an amount of sticky brown goo. Careful at this stage as the line will pick up anything it touches, fluff, grass, even the white paper surface of the foam core board I mistakenly wound it around when taking it inside.. still have to remove some tiny white specs..
The line has been sunbathing for six full days now, looking at it closely in the sunlight, the braid has not been exposed and the line appears to be now green rather than the brown that it was. It is also much less sticky. While tempted to keep wiping it down with the turpentine, I now feel that just leaving it alone will be of more benefit.
When I do bring it in now, if rain threatens, I have covered said foam core board with waxed paper to prevent and sticking of the line to it and do not let the coils touch.
I plan to give it a few more days in the sun then will need to consider what 'cuticle' to apply- copal varnish as suggested, or another.
For now,
Malcolm
Hung my sticky Phoenix line full length in the garden and used Turpentine on a cloth to rub, no need to use the fancy artist's stuff I discovered as one of those little bottles will not be enough.
I rubbed the line 5 or 6 times along its length removing an amount of sticky brown goo. Careful at this stage as the line will pick up anything it touches, fluff, grass, even the white paper surface of the foam core board I mistakenly wound it around when taking it inside.. still have to remove some tiny white specs..
The line has been sunbathing for six full days now, looking at it closely in the sunlight, the braid has not been exposed and the line appears to be now green rather than the brown that it was. It is also much less sticky. While tempted to keep wiping it down with the turpentine, I now feel that just leaving it alone will be of more benefit.
When I do bring it in now, if rain threatens, I have covered said foam core board with waxed paper to prevent and sticking of the line to it and do not let the coils touch.
I plan to give it a few more days in the sun then will need to consider what 'cuticle' to apply- copal varnish as suggested, or another.
For now,
Malcolm
Re: Sticky silk line
#83Yo od
For ffishing purposes, I don't worry much about incidental fluff, bits, etc that get stuck on my lines, since a few minutes of casting and ffishing will exorcise them. Sun is great for old varnishes on silk lines, since the UV rays and warmth will catalyze the curing reactions.
tl
les
For ffishing purposes, I don't worry much about incidental fluff, bits, etc that get stuck on my lines, since a few minutes of casting and ffishing will exorcise them. Sun is great for old varnishes on silk lines, since the UV rays and warmth will catalyze the curing reactions.
tl
les
Re: Sticky silk line
#84Yep, its out there again day 8. The few small bits of paper are really stuck on there, even after a light passing through steel wool.
Put a cuticle of varnish on will trap them forever.
I plan to work with the tip of a sharp Exacto blade under a printers loupe.
It is quite a satisfying process, so far..
Put a cuticle of varnish on will trap them forever.
I plan to work with the tip of a sharp Exacto blade under a printers loupe.
It is quite a satisfying process, so far..
Re: Sticky silk line
#85Malcolm, if you use copal varnish that is made with equal parts copal and linseed, then you need to cut it with some water washed (pre-polymerized) linseed and turpentine. Otherwise, it’s too viscous to apply a very thin cuticle with your fingers and your line won’t be subtle enough (too much copal, proportionately).
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Re: Sticky silk line
#86I would be surprised if it actually 'reconditioned' the softened varnish. Oil-based, 'boiled' varnishes (i.e. based on a drying oil and a siccative (which is what Japan drier also is), never really 'stop' the catalyzed oxidation/polymerization process - but at a certain point in this process, the polymers start breaking down (as do paints and varnishes on like really old (art) paintings). The products that are generated at this stage of the process are different from the original 'starting materials' (drying oil, drying fatty acids, and natural resins), and I would not expect addition of new/additional driers would reverse that process. What probably happens is that your Japan drier comes dissolved in an oil-containing matrix, and applying some (pure) Japan drier to an old line will just coat it with a thin layer of a highly catalyzed oil, which will form a thin polymerized skin over the softened varnish?
Re: Sticky silk line
#87I am 'leaning' towards the suggested - copal/ linseed cut with water-washed (pre-polymerized) linseed and turpentine- but where to find such concoctions.
Being an art/ design instructor by profession, I am a loss where to start with this. My local art store did not have copal varnish and there seem to be many copal varnishes on- line ready made and not.
Dwight, could you recommend both copal, plus water washed linseed oil products as there are a myriad available.
Thanks,
Malcolm
Being an art/ design instructor by profession, I am a loss where to start with this. My local art store did not have copal varnish and there seem to be many copal varnishes on- line ready made and not.
Dwight, could you recommend both copal, plus water washed linseed oil products as there are a myriad available.
Thanks,
Malcolm
Re: Sticky silk line
#88Malcolm, I purchased from this place years ago- https://arttreehouse.com/artstore/produ ... -flax-oil/
It’s twice the cost now. 16oz will make six or so lines from scratch. The copal-linseed varnish from here (this stuff goes a very long way)-
http://www.jamescgroves.com/ordermediums.htm
Make absolutely sure your line is completely polymerized (not sticky, not even a little tacky) before applying a cuticle. If you cannot get it to ‘dry,’ you may need to strip it with acetone (does not harm silk) in a mason jar and refinish from scratch.
I tend to agree with the notion that applying metal drier to a sticky line will not work well. My experience has been that only turpentine wipes/scrubbing followed by many days, even weeks, in the sunlight outside will cure a sticky line, if the line is salvageable. The repeated turpentine wipes remove sticky material and disturb the surface to allow oxygen to enter the remaining material. Don’t a-braid the silk with your cloth if the silk becomes exposed; use lots of turpentine on your cloth as ‘lubricant’ and be patient.
Lastly, if the above process removes a noticeable amount of sticky material (ie: a sticky/gummy line), and if the underlying material does polymerize completely, you’ll need to apply a couple layers of water washed linseed to replace the material you lost. Do so with very thin coats applied with your bare fingers and rub the line between your fingers every few hours to spread evenly and thin each application until it becomes too sticky to touch (easily within a day on a sunny summer day in Utah with WWLO). Don’t worry about marring the finish and don’t try to build-up any given layer, keep disturbing it as it polymerizes. This is the method I used to make the best line I have from scratch. Also, consider weighing your line on a cheap reloading grain scale before you begin any reconditioning so you can get it back to the same weight after your process is complete. You can also use the scale to weigh the first 30’ minus level tip of your other lines and learn quite a bit about what you have. It’s fun!
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Re: Sticky silk line
#89I had a silk line turn sticky on me. I wiped it down with mineral spirits and 0000 steel wool, and put it in the sun for a few days. No perceived change to the stickiness (and maybe I should have waited longer).
This past weekend, I wiped it down with a very small amount of cobalt siccative left over from my oil painting days. By "small amount" I mean a dime-size spot on a towel for the entire line. (Note on Japan driers: some Japan driers use cobalt, some use manganese, etc., so cobalt siccative is Japan drier.) After a couple of days in the sun the stickiness is gone. I ordered some Otter Butter and will apply that when it arrives.
Cobalt siccative, at least in oil painting, is intensive stuff. You only need a drop or two in the painting medium (usually linseed oil) for it to work.
YMMV.
Good luck,
Jon
This past weekend, I wiped it down with a very small amount of cobalt siccative left over from my oil painting days. By "small amount" I mean a dime-size spot on a towel for the entire line. (Note on Japan driers: some Japan driers use cobalt, some use manganese, etc., so cobalt siccative is Japan drier.) After a couple of days in the sun the stickiness is gone. I ordered some Otter Butter and will apply that when it arrives.
Cobalt siccative, at least in oil painting, is intensive stuff. You only need a drop or two in the painting medium (usually linseed oil) for it to work.
YMMV.
Good luck,
Jon
Re: Sticky silk line
#90That's some naaaaasty stuff, though! Be careful with it and wear chemical gloves to be safe.Short Tip wrote: ↑06/19/22 08:00Thanks for the kind words, fellas.
Looks like I'm having pretty good results using Japan drier, an additive for making oil paint and varnish cure faster. I stretched out the line in the backyard and ran a saturated microfiber rag over it several times, than left it to cure outdoors for a few days. The difference was amazing. I picked up the Japan drier at a paint store.
Re: Sticky silk line
#91I realize this is an old thread, but I do have a little info for you. BLO doesn't dry like a varnish, it cures like a polymer. In fact, it can take 20+ years for it to fully cure. I believe this is why silk lines remain supple for so long, then suddenly get dry and need refinishing. You are simply feeling the outer layer that has polymerized, but underneath, it is still uncured-soooooo, when left in a closed container, even a new line will get tacky, because the outer surface is softened by the uncured BLO beneath. Leaving a line in large coils outside in direct sunlight with lots of fresh air will help polymerize it.
Re: Sticky silk line
#92Thanks, I did exactly that and I should have mentioned it.Jaimec wrote: ↑10/28/22 15:09That's some naaaaasty stuff, though! Be careful with it and wear chemical gloves to be safe.Short Tip wrote: ↑06/19/22 08:00Thanks for the kind words, fellas.
Looks like I'm having pretty good results using Japan drier, an additive for making oil paint and varnish cure faster. I stretched out the line in the backyard and ran a saturated microfiber rag over it several times, than left it to cure outdoors for a few days. The difference was amazing. I picked up the Japan drier at a paint store.
Re: Sticky silk line
#93hmmm , i'm starting to wonder about effort ,expense v reward . might be cheaper , easier to buy a new line ? i will still try to resurrect the line i have .
probably won't buy any old / sticky ones again .
probably won't buy any old / sticky ones again .
Re: Sticky silk line
#94I get contacted by people fairly often, asking if I would be willing to refinish their sticky lines for them. I have to explain to them that the expense of making a silk line isn't in the line itself, but the finish. Rather, the labor involved in the finish. For the most part, I don't think they believe me.
Jaime
"Custom Made Silk Fly Lines, Tenkara and Furled Leaders, Hand Made in the USA"
Re: Sticky silk line
#95This hand wringing in this thread drives me nuts. I’ve successfully gotten many fly lines to harden up with otter butter including 7 I bought from Short Tip this year. The procedure is on page 1, post #2. You don’t need a bunch of chemicals. Just some otter butter and a bit of time - a few to maybe several months at most. It works. Try it. The only caveat is the line must be tacky not gooey. Once it gets gooey this method won’t work.
Re: Sticky silk line
#97I had several sticky lines and was twisting myself up in knots over what to do. So many different approaches and opinions.
I ended up going with limewater. I bought a packet of calcium chloride on Amazon for $8 and made it myself. It’s really easy to do.
The first line went in for 15 minutes, which was too long. The limewater took off much of the cuticle of that line. Fixable but not what I wanted. The next lines went in for 5-10 minutes. I would periodically check each line while in the solution to see if it was still tacky, or if it was ready to come out. The sticky Thebault lines lightened slightly in color when the stickiness was gone, so that was an indicator too.
Once the stickiness was gone I rinsed off the solution and hung the lines in the sun this afternoon. The lines now have zero stickiness and the cuticles of the lines remained. I could fish these lines tomorrow.
Thanks to those who suggested limewater!
I ended up going with limewater. I bought a packet of calcium chloride on Amazon for $8 and made it myself. It’s really easy to do.
The first line went in for 15 minutes, which was too long. The limewater took off much of the cuticle of that line. Fixable but not what I wanted. The next lines went in for 5-10 minutes. I would periodically check each line while in the solution to see if it was still tacky, or if it was ready to come out. The sticky Thebault lines lightened slightly in color when the stickiness was gone, so that was an indicator too.
Once the stickiness was gone I rinsed off the solution and hung the lines in the sun this afternoon. The lines now have zero stickiness and the cuticles of the lines remained. I could fish these lines tomorrow.
Thanks to those who suggested limewater!
Re: Sticky silk line
#98Most of the tackiness has gone from the line I posted that I was dealing with last summer, just had it loosely coiled since then. But to complete the process, I would like to try the lime water previously mentioned.
Looked into Amazon- the question is which one? or are they the same.
Malcolm
Looked into Amazon- the question is which one? or are they the same.
Malcolm
Re: Sticky silk line
#99In the past few weeks I got two more Phoenix lines from Paul (short tip) that were almost gooey to almost broken in with nothing except otter butter, sunshine, and some time on the river. I’ve found putting the line on the sun and running between the fingers 6 or 8 times accelerates the hardening process. One was so bad it was almost impossible to get the otter butter on as the line was sticking to itself. Once I got the butter on it was like night and day. Did a few sessions in the sun then one more light otter butter dressing, and then out to the river. Caught three fish on it Sunday, no tack left, just a bit soft still but should harden up with another couple weeks of use. The other line was better and it’s fishing well now too.
Anyway point is OddsnRods you might want to just go for it and fish the line if it’s not tacky.
Anyway point is OddsnRods you might want to just go for it and fish the line if it’s not tacky.
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Re: Sticky silk line
#100I bought a NOS line that is labeled as "Enameled" Anyone know what that means? I don't know if it is silk or nylon.