I would send an email to Gunpowder Custom Tackle and let them know about your experience. It sounds like they are selling bad cobblers wax.ozarkwater wrote: ↑04/22/22 06:08That gunpowder Cobbler's wax is exactly what I used. Two pieces. Hot water, softened it, but immediately began to harden. Was brittle out of the pack and after the hot water treatment. Hot tap water was used at first then into a pan of water to get even warmer on the stove. Just like DrLogik and Jamie McPhail video. No dice with either piece. One, is fairly recent. Last 6 months? Other one, probably pushing 2 years.
Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
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Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#21Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#22I wished to tie a few Waterhen Bloas this winter, also primrose waxed to olive. I did not obsess and run out and try to get cobbler's wax. I used my Wonder Wax and rubbed it into the silk with my fingers until the silk turned olive. Can't say they may not lighten when fished and wet and dryed repeatedly but so far I am just fine with the result.
Regarding silk, I have been using both my meager supply of Pearsall's and the current Ephemera Silk. I am very satisfied with the Ephemera.
Regarding silk, I have been using both my meager supply of Pearsall's and the current Ephemera Silk. I am very satisfied with the Ephemera.
...a wink of gold like the glint of sunlight on polished cane...
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Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#23Well, worked up a piece of wax. Not the cobbler's wax and...ran it across some typical brown shoe polish, then...worked my primrose silk into it.
Did not turn out too bad! Color looked pretty good actually.
Will attempt to use it in the next few days.
Well...shut down the work laptop, couldn't handle it anymore today. Tied that primrose, waxed, shoe polish silk floss. Color was just not right. Back to the drawing board.
Did not turn out too bad! Color looked pretty good actually.
Will attempt to use it in the next few days.
Well...shut down the work laptop, couldn't handle it anymore today. Tied that primrose, waxed, shoe polish silk floss. Color was just not right. Back to the drawing board.
Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#24Sorry if I missed it, but how would a cobbler use wax?
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Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#27Flykuni, Way back in the day a shoe cobbler used a sticky yet hard and tacky wax to wax the thread for shoes when hand-stitching to keep the thread tight and not slip. The black was probably used for dark thread and there is a yellow cobbler's wax that was probably used for light-colored thread. That's what we use it for when tying with silk. Today I think most shoe makers use pre-waxed thread even in their stitching machines.Sorry if I missed it, but how would a cobbler use wax?
Back in the 1970's when I lived in Cleveland there was a shoemaker down the street from my high school. It was around the corner from the bike shop I worked at as a mechanic (Al's Bike Shop). I stopped in one day and asked if he had any cobbler's wax. He said, yes, yellow or black? I was tying flies with silk back then and asked for both. He broke me off a piece of each and said no payment necessary. He asked what I wanted it for. I told for waxing silk thread for tying flies. He smiled and nodded his head.
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Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#28FYI, I have a 1940s Dutch 'recipe book' for household and industrial chemical products that lists the following ingredients for a cobbler's wax (schoenmakerswas), hard variety:
8 parts colophony
2 parts ester resin
30 parts montan wax
45 parts paraffin
10 parts stearin pitch
2 parts nigrosin
Nigrosin is a black pigment with, as far as I can judge no structural function in the wax, so can probably be swapped for another black pigment - unless maybe if the wax is used specifically for its properties of altering the colour of your silk
Stearin pitch is a pitch 'cooked' from stearin - tallow. This makes it a pitch based on medium chain fatty acids - probably not unlike pine tar, but without the rosin component
Paraffin is just that, long chain aliphatic hydrocarbons
Montan wax is a 'wax' extracted from lignite - a pitchlike material generated by prolonged pressure rather than heat - from decayed plant material
Ester resin - beats me, that name is too generic to adequately parse. Probably just a rosin type material
Colophony - pine roans, one of the traditional plant resins
I expected that hardened cobbler's wax would just have lost some solvent through (slow) evaporation, but I don't think there's much solvent, or volatile material in the above recipe. I therefore think that hardening of cobbler's wax over time may very well be the result of ongoing polymerisation or oxidation of the resin and pitch components, and may ultimately be irreversible...
8 parts colophony
2 parts ester resin
30 parts montan wax
45 parts paraffin
10 parts stearin pitch
2 parts nigrosin
Nigrosin is a black pigment with, as far as I can judge no structural function in the wax, so can probably be swapped for another black pigment - unless maybe if the wax is used specifically for its properties of altering the colour of your silk
Stearin pitch is a pitch 'cooked' from stearin - tallow. This makes it a pitch based on medium chain fatty acids - probably not unlike pine tar, but without the rosin component
Paraffin is just that, long chain aliphatic hydrocarbons
Montan wax is a 'wax' extracted from lignite - a pitchlike material generated by prolonged pressure rather than heat - from decayed plant material
Ester resin - beats me, that name is too generic to adequately parse. Probably just a rosin type material
Colophony - pine roans, one of the traditional plant resins
I expected that hardened cobbler's wax would just have lost some solvent through (slow) evaporation, but I don't think there's much solvent, or volatile material in the above recipe. I therefore think that hardening of cobbler's wax over time may very well be the result of ongoing polymerisation or oxidation of the resin and pitch components, and may ultimately be irreversible...
Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#29For several years Bill was part of our fly tying group. I was blessed to get to try a lot of Bill's wax' All of it was good for it's intended purpose. Bill spends a lot of time researching old reciepes for his products. He also makes natural dies.WiFlyFisher wrote: ↑04/22/22 06:23For years I have used William Bailey's tying wax, it is excellent for using with Pearsall's Gossamer silk thread, YLI, etc. I get it direct from Bill.
It is also sold here... https://feathersmc.com/product/cobblers-wax/.
John
It is the only wax I use when I use wax.
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Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#30Finally! Ordered some "new" cobbler's wax - and it worked! So the two older pieces, must have had some age on them.
Thank you guys!
Thank you guys!
Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#31I'm glad you got that sorted. Where did you order it from? I may have to pick some up.ozarkwater wrote: ↑05/12/22 17:34Finally! Ordered some "new" cobbler's wax - and it worked! So the two older pieces, must have had some age on them.
Thank you guys!
Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#32I just now noticed this topic. I recently made a new batch of cobbler’s wax. The thing that gives it the dark color is pine pitch. Since it is no longer available I have to make it myself. I cook down pine tar until it solid. This takes many hours over several days. Well made cobbler’s wax is a dark bronze color. It looks black when melted but after being pulled like taffy it lightens up.
Pperfect axRe: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#33I think I've seen more junk science about fly tying waxes than any other single subject on this forum.
Cobbler's wax/dubbing wax/tying wax are all variations on a theme that that's no more complex than any of us care to make it. The ingredients are simple. Some bee's wax, some rosin, and a softening agent. All are easily obtainable through the internet, if not locally. If one reads through the various wax recipies from Liesenring, Young, and Darbbie you will find this one true thing: tying wax of any kind, no matter what it's made from will desicate over time with exposure to air. You can form it into pills, cut it into chunks, put it into jugs of water in your refridgerator, wrap it in wax paper....it dosn't matter. Eventually, exposior to air wiil change your perfect version of wax into something less perfect.
And so... where do we go from here. I suggest that making any one's "perfect wax" is subjective. Get back to the basics that are the foundation of the craft of fly tying. Making wax is no more complicated than making any one's perfect March Brown dubbing blend. Just learn the basic ingredients, and play with them.
A $3:00 alluminum sauce pan, some bee's wax, some bow rosin, some cooking oil/baby oil/...dosn't really matter because it's all ephemereral any way.
I quauratee this...when you cook up your own wax, on Saturday, on your own stove, your house will smell better than what ever you cooked for breakfast. Winter's coming. We have nothing better to do with our time than get back to the basics of our craft.
Cobbler's wax/dubbing wax/tying wax are all variations on a theme that that's no more complex than any of us care to make it. The ingredients are simple. Some bee's wax, some rosin, and a softening agent. All are easily obtainable through the internet, if not locally. If one reads through the various wax recipies from Liesenring, Young, and Darbbie you will find this one true thing: tying wax of any kind, no matter what it's made from will desicate over time with exposure to air. You can form it into pills, cut it into chunks, put it into jugs of water in your refridgerator, wrap it in wax paper....it dosn't matter. Eventually, exposior to air wiil change your perfect version of wax into something less perfect.
And so... where do we go from here. I suggest that making any one's "perfect wax" is subjective. Get back to the basics that are the foundation of the craft of fly tying. Making wax is no more complicated than making any one's perfect March Brown dubbing blend. Just learn the basic ingredients, and play with them.
A $3:00 alluminum sauce pan, some bee's wax, some bow rosin, some cooking oil/baby oil/...dosn't really matter because it's all ephemereral any way.
I quauratee this...when you cook up your own wax, on Saturday, on your own stove, your house will smell better than what ever you cooked for breakfast. Winter's coming. We have nothing better to do with our time than get back to the basics of our craft.
Last edited by slw on 11/05/22 10:20, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#34I’ve delved deeply into fly tying literature (thanks to InternetArchive.org) and tried nearly every wax recipe. I have also consulted with numerous shoemakers including the one at Williamsburg. Nothing makes a fly more durable than wax that contains pitch. It is absolutely waterproof. In the past hooks and materials were much more dear and a fly maker’s reputation depended on his flies being durable, especially expensive salmon flies. In today’s world of synthetic materials these things are of much less concern.
Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#35I will gently and respectfully disagree with the claim that "pitch" is "absolutly waterproof". It it is not. Generally speaking, it's a naturally occuring water soluable compound that is found in a variety of plant species world wide. If "pitch" wasn't water soluable it couldn't flow through the the cambium layer of various plants.
That said, " pitch" can indeed be consentrated by cooking it down, thus increasing it's water resistence.
That said, " pitch" can indeed be consentrated by cooking it down, thus increasing it's water resistence.
Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#36I used to be confused about the word pitch. How could the best pine tar be low in pitch. The pitch you make is different than naturally occurring pitch.
“Kiln burned Pine Tar 773
General: Golden brown pine tar produced according to the old kiln method from stumps of the pine tree Pinus Silvestris. Also known as "peasant made" tar. This type of tar is characterized by high resin content (rosin acids and retene), low content of pitch and high purity, i.e. free from soot and other impurities.”
Pitch was used to waterproof the old wooden sailing ships. The modern product is synthetic so that is why I have to make it myself.
“Kiln burned Pine Tar 773
General: Golden brown pine tar produced according to the old kiln method from stumps of the pine tree Pinus Silvestris. Also known as "peasant made" tar. This type of tar is characterized by high resin content (rosin acids and retene), low content of pitch and high purity, i.e. free from soot and other impurities.”
Pitch was used to waterproof the old wooden sailing ships. The modern product is synthetic so that is why I have to make it myself.
Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#37Pinus sylvesterus is the scientific name for Scots pine....a pine species commonly found across northern europe. I have no doubt that it was used in the production of navel stores. The same can be said of tar kilns here in the southeastern US using longleaf and slash pine. I do, however, think it's a mistake to think that a particular tree species produced rosin that might actually be better than another. At least not for the purposes of naval stores or fly tying waxes.
I have no idea what you might be referencing by using the term "modern product is synthetic". Perhaps that means stabilized esthers which can be bought by the bucketful for varnish production in industerial quantites.
I assure you of this: high quality rosins from various tree species, in a variety of naturally occuring tackiness levels, and colors are easily obtainable from music stores. They are sold as bow rosin to musicians who play stinged instruments. And if you think fly tiers like us get kinda nuts about tying wax, you should venture into the world of orchestral musicians who are far more fussy about rosin than we are.
I have no idea what you might be referencing by using the term "modern product is synthetic". Perhaps that means stabilized esthers which can be bought by the bucketful for varnish production in industerial quantites.
I assure you of this: high quality rosins from various tree species, in a variety of naturally occuring tackiness levels, and colors are easily obtainable from music stores. They are sold as bow rosin to musicians who play stinged instruments. And if you think fly tiers like us get kinda nuts about tying wax, you should venture into the world of orchestral musicians who are far more fussy about rosin than we are.
Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#38The rosin and turpentine I use comes from Georgia slash pine. The best pine tar comes from Sweden. I use the best I çan get in all my products. I even use Everclear in my liquid wax. The recipe I follow for head cement calls for Egyptian asphalt. I could easily use the much cheaper Gilsonite from Utah but Egyptian asphalt is considered the better product and of course is more authentic.
Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#39Well, Egytian asphalt is certainly a game changer for me. I surrender. :-))))
Re: Frustrating?! Greenwell' Glory and cobblers wax
#40I use to teach English as a second language. One of problems involved is explaining why one word can mean two completely different things. Tree bark vs a dog’s bark. In this case we have pitch vs pitch and rosin vs rosin. A natural product vs a man made product.