Montague question

[bamboo rodley]

I am trying to determine whether a butt section of a Montague rod I have is made of tonkin cane or calcutta. I am posting a photo of the reel seat and grip. The grip is relatively small, about 5 inches. Does anyone know when Montague switched from calcutta cane to tonkin cane, and based on the photo, approximately when this rod would have been made. Any information is greatly appreciated. Thanks much.

[jeffkn1]

There's not enough cane showing in your photo to make a judgment either way on Calcutta vs Tonkin. Montague used Calcutta up into the Thirties on specific models. Whenever I come across a round Montague trade rod, or cataloged Montague with round shafts, I usually conclude Calcutta. The Varney model was also Calcutta but I don't know exactly when that model started and don't know if it was originally specified as a lathe turned . The Montague Varneys I've seen have all been hexagonal.
The grip seems more Thirties to me. The reel seat started before that I think but I haven't seen one blued before. Montague's history with blued hardware was usually based on brass hardware with a blued finish the catalog called bronzed.
It's going to take more than my observations to fully answer this one. You'll need another photo or two, and you'll need Rex's input.

[bamboo rodley]

Thanks Jeff. I will post another picture later. The rod was a 9 1/2 ft rod with size 15 and 10 ferrules so a very light weight rod.

[jeffkn1]

I can see the blued winding check. What is the ferrule like, blued with the heavy welt?

[bamboo rodley]

Yes blued with heavy welt. I think the rod may have originally been a Redwing. If you read my recent post in the rod making section you will see I am using the butt section to build another rod. The Monty rod was not worth repairing. It needed two new tips.

[barebo]

Can anyone pinpoint the definitive characteristics that identify Calcutta versus Tonkin? I posted an early round rod that was determined to be a Monty - 9 1/2' and the cane is very light and extremely clear in all sections. I fish a 3wt. line and it is a sweet rod to use light nymphing or with a few wets.
haven't tried dries but it carries the line in the air nicely with a slower and smooth stroke but can punch it fairly well. The rod is a paradox for me - very different from all of my others but I love fishing it. Didn't care for the sheet cork and wrapped it with rattan.

[bamboo rodley]

Here are a few more photos.

[Tommasini]

Looks like Tonkin cane.
Calcutta shows many burn marks. At least that's what I notice as the big identifier.

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, +1 for burn marks.....

Jay Edwards

[bamboo rodley]

There are no visible burn marks on the cane, but it is lighter in color than most of the rods I own. I actually bought some Potassium Permanganate and used it to stain all the sections for the rod I'm building(from spare parts), and was surprised at what a nice medium brown color I was able to achieve. Definitely worth the eight dollars I paid for it on Amazon.

[Booman2]

"Monty Man" should chime in here very soon. Remarkably, we had a 90 minute sit-down today where I showed him sections from an earlier version of the same type rod. A photo of the "rails" on the reel seat could help. Also, are there ghost marks for an old signature wrap or intermediates?
One more thing, what is the node pattern. Surprisingly (at least to me) is that mine has spiral nodes, counter clockwise.

[bamboo rodley]

There are no rails on the reel seat. The node pattern is not exactly definitive but also not totally random. Seems like two on opposite flats, then the third a bit higher, and then a repeat of the same on the other three flats. There were originally full intermediates.

[bamboo rodley]

Here is a discussion and some photos of the rod when I first purchased it.

viewtopic.php?p=835152&hilit=9+1%2F2%27+rod#p835152

[TheMontyMan]

I apologize for coming late to this party. 2022 was a crazy year in my life. I've been playing catch-up lately, on this Forum and in my life in general.

Is/was it a Red Wing? No, it's definitely not a Red Wing. It matches pretty closely (but not exactly) with an advertisement I dug up with similar reel seat, cork grip shape and signature windings, but it was not blued. The rod was in the top 10 of the 90+ fly rod models offered during the period. It was probably built in the late 1920's to early 30's based on the hardware and grip shape.

I suspect the bluing may have been done after it left the Montague shop, but I can't be sure. I've only seen a couple Montague rods with this type of bluing. As Jeff mentioned, they typically applied a more brownish finish they called "bronzed". I have not seen any of their rods advertised as blued or blackened like this rod. On the other rods I've seen with this type of blued/black finish, those models were not advertised with hardware that was bronzed or any other finish. BUT, one thing I've learned about Montague is that anything is possible. I wouldn't be surprised if this type of bluing was an option that could be requested by a retailer or wholesaler. If enough examples pop up, that might tip the scales.

Once you stripped it, I'm pretty confident that it is Tonkin cane. Montague started using Tonkin cane before 1900, but continued using Calcutta cane into the 1930's as Jeff indicated.

. . . Rex
The Monty Man