Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

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kakaryan
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Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#1

Post by kakaryan »

So Stan used to make reels for Abercrombie & Fitch, those AF Bodgan models, sold in the A&F New York store. I think there were AF100M, 200M and 300M.

But without rod, it didn't make a complete combo and you couldn't go fishing. Logically there were rods sold in the store together with those reels.

I am interested to know what rods did Abercrombie & Fitch carry and sell? I searched online and there aren't much results. I only saw some fiberglass rods (Philipson?) and probably from later years. At the Bogdan time there should be bamboo rods, but I could only see a Payne A&F model on the big auction site.

Any more info? And what models have been made/sold?

Ear4
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#2

Post by Ear4 »

A&F sold a lot of Paynes, and starting in about 1963, owned Payne. These are stamped either “Sold by A&F” or “Made for A&F.” They also sold rods by F.E. Thomas, Orvis, and others. A search on this site should come up with scans of some of the old catalogs that people have shared over the years.

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cwfly
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#3

Post by cwfly »

Ear4 wrote:
06/07/22 05:08
A&F sold a lot of Paynes, and starting in about 1963, owned Payne. These are stamped either “Sold by A&F” or “Made for A&F.”
You sure about this?
"History has a beloved cousin who has the family eyes and nose
but is a rather different creature - myth." Ken Cameron,
The American Fly Fisher, v. 28, n. 1, Winter, 2002, (AMFF, Manchester, Vt., 2002).

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dshx
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#4

Post by dshx »

Don’t overlook the Edwards’ A&F Favorite rods. One of my “favorite” 7 1/2’ 5 wt rods.

-Dwight

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Greg Reynolds
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#5

Post by Greg Reynolds »

cwfly wrote:
06/12/22 16:00
Ear4 wrote:
06/07/22 05:08
A&F sold a lot of Paynes, and starting in about 1963, owned Payne. These are stamped either “Sold by A&F” or “Made for A&F.”
You sure about this?
Here are examples:
https://www.spinozarods.com/collections ... salmon-rod
https://www.spinozarods.com/collections ... -rod-8-2-2

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cwfly
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#6

Post by cwfly »

Greg Reynolds wrote:
06/14/22 06:46
cwfly wrote:
06/12/22 16:00
Ear4 wrote:
06/07/22 05:08
A&F sold a lot of Paynes, and starting in about 1963, owned Payne. These are stamped either “Sold by A&F” or “Made for A&F.”
You sure about this?
Here are examples:
https://www.spinozarods.com/collections ... salmon-rod
https://www.spinozarods.com/collections ... -rod-8-2-2
Greg, I am very aware of the roll stamps depicted. However, I have never read, anywhere other than in this thread, that A & F owned the Payne rod company and I do not believe the roll stamps you linked to reflect that assertion.
"History has a beloved cousin who has the family eyes and nose
but is a rather different creature - myth." Ken Cameron,
The American Fly Fisher, v. 28, n. 1, Winter, 2002, (AMFF, Manchester, Vt., 2002).

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Greg Reynolds
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#7

Post by Greg Reynolds »

cwfly wrote:
06/14/22 08:09
Greg Reynolds wrote:
06/14/22 06:46
cwfly wrote:
06/12/22 16:00
Ear4 wrote:
06/07/22 05:08
A&F sold a lot of Paynes, and starting in about 1963, owned Payne. These are stamped either “Sold by A&F” or “Made for A&F.”
You sure about this?
Here are examples:
https://www.spinozarods.com/collections ... salmon-rod
https://www.spinozarods.com/collections ... -rod-8-2-2
Greg, I am very aware of the roll stamps depicted. However, I have never read, anywhere other than in this thread, that A & F owned the Payne rod company and I do not believe the roll stamps you linked to reflect that assertion.
I'm sorry, I misread the post. You're correct, the relationship with A&F was a marketing agreement only.

Ear4
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#8

Post by Ear4 »

I just re-read Hoagy’s history of Payne in “8” and stand corrected. Tom Collin’s shares were sold in 1963 but part of Gerald Mayer’s purchase of the stock was that A&F became the sole agent. (P98-99) I mistakenly remembered this as A&F was the purchaser.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake, and for Hoagy for documenting the history of Payne.


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kakaryan
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#9

Post by kakaryan »

So I revisited this question again in 2023. I have talked to a few reel enthusiasts.

The reel in question that I acquired in the past is an A&F Bogdan 200M, with serial no. showing it was made in 1960.

Being a reel at 11.5oz, we think a rod of about 10'~12' would be best matched with it. Then if we consider the same period that the Payne rods were made, it would be the 420 Salmon Dry Fly rod with detachable handle, and maybe some other double hand models?

Then I guess, the 100M would be good for the shorter 400 and 410. And the 300M for those big rods?

Not sure if I am correct, but it seems that I have seen more A&F Bogdan floating around, than a Payne 420? Maybe some have broken? Or were there other A&F rods that were made to pair with those reels?

I guess bamboo is the only material for rod making in 1960 so there was not glass salmon fly rod? (As I saw glass rods appeared in the late 1960s from Hardy catalog) Or there were glass rod in 1960?

NewUtahCaneAngler
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#10

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler »

In the 1964 catalog that I owned, both Orvis and Payne rods were listed for sale. I may have posted a photo of what was available somewhere in this forum, but not being a salmon angler, I would have been most interested in trout rods.

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2dabacking
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#11

Post by 2dabacking »

Here are some of the cataloged options for salmon rods sold by A&F in 1960:

- A&F Monogram Impregnated Bamboo Salmon Fly Rod (3-pc. w/ extension butt, 8 1/2' or 9')
- A&F Monogram Salmon-Steelhead Glass Fly Rod (9' 3-pc.)
- Several Orvis Salmon Rods (between 8 1/2' and 11')

The above rods were included in the 1960 catalog. Payne Salmon rods were not included in the 1960 catalog, but they were certainly available through A&F. Phillipson, Hardy, Pezon et Michel, Tycoon, and Sila-Flex also supplied rods to A&F during this time and throughout the '60s. Fenwick glass was included in the catalogs by the late '60s.

To expand the list a bit, here are some additional salmon rods cataloged by A&F around the time the A&F Monogram Reels by Bogdan were made:

- A&F Salmon & Saltwater Rod (Made by Orvis - 9' 2-pc. #17 ferrule w/ 2" detachable butt)
- Payne Ideal Dry Fly Salmon Rod (3-pc. 9' or 9 1/2')
- Payne Double-built Butt Salmon Rods (3-pc. 10' or 10 1/2' (1958 catalog))
- Payne Two-Handed Models (3-pc. 11' to 13' (1958 catalog))
- Sila-Flex Medallion Glass Salmon or Saltwater Fly Rod (9')
- A&F Dry Fly Split Bamboo Salmon Rod (3-pc. 9 1/2' including 6 1/2" extension butt)
- Pezon Salmon Rods (3-pc. w/ detachable grip 9' or 9 1/2')

The larger two-handed rods didn't make it into the catalogs very often during this time.

Being that the reels were branded "Monogram," I wonder if the intention was to pair them with Monogram rods?

kakaryan
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#12

Post by kakaryan »

Thanks. Very imformative.

I think there are some models that are rare or I have never seen? Such as the "A&F Monogram Impregnated Bamboo ". I have seen Monogram glass though.

And for these two models, were the 10' and 10' 1/2 single hand rod with detachable fighting butt? I used to think that only the two handed models are double built.
- Payne Double-built Butt Salmon Rods (3-pc. 10' or 10 1/2' (1958 catalog))
- Payne Two-Handed Models (3-pc. 11' to 13' (1958 catalog))

And who was the builder for this? Payne or others?
- A&F Dry Fly Split Bamboo Salmon Rod (3-pc. 9 1/2' including 6 1/2" extension butt)

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2dabacking
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Re: Matching A&F rods for A&F Bogdan reels?

#13

Post by 2dabacking »

Some salmon rods were double-built in the butt section only. The 10’ and 10’6” rods mentioned above would have been Payne models 415 and 420, respectively. There was also a 10’2” rod (model 416) with a stationary two-inch extension that would have a double-built butt section.

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