Balancing big rods

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StePhDen
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Posts: 164
Joined: 02/20/20 13:21

Balancing big rods

#1

Post by StePhDen »

Hi All,

I just finished my take on the 8’6” DeLespinay Alosa. The rod in question is three pieces with carbon ferrules. The but and mid sections are hallowed to 50thou using the Magic star MHM head and the tips are hallowed to 50 thou using the hollow fluter. I didn’t weigh the rod before giving it away (should have). But it’s staying local so I could get that info from the guy if I need it.

I finished the rod and when casting with an 8wt line loaded onto a 5.5oz reel I noticed a lot of pressure on the pinky side of my palm. I checked the balance point with the reel on and it was about 6 inches forward from the front of the grip.

I know that fulcrum needs to move back toward the grip (preferably into the grip) to make casting comfortable. And I know this can be partially fixed with a heavier reel. There is only so much I can do for this rod but I’d like to plan better for future rods.

I feel like I’ve seen other posts where people talk about bigger rods being more tip heavy. Are there other things I can do to help balance these big rods? I’m using recoil snake guides, 3 tank dipped coats of varnish, poly thread, and light build thread epoxy. I feel like I’ve hallowed as much as I can, I guess I could use a thinner/lighter finish.

Thanks,

Stephen


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oddsnrods
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Posts: 1686
Joined: 04/22/08 18:00

Re: Balancing big rods

#2

Post by oddsnrods »

'Light rods are not necessarily comfortable or easy to fish with, as so much depends on the scientific distribution of the weight. There is no difficulty in reducing weight, but to do this, and yet retain power and utility, is a very difficult matter indeed'

This from Hardy's 1957 catalogue and probably still true today.

I would suggest looking for your answer lower down in the rod and consider a longer handle. I recently made a version of a 9' 6" Hardy Rogue River single handed 7wt 3pce. rod. The original I measured from had a 6" screw in extension handle taking it to 10'. I made my rod with the extension built in, so to speak, which aids in back casting plus while holding to fish as it comes up against and under the forearm rather than being supported by the wrist alone, possibly the cause of the tighter grip mentioned.The length of the handle is 18".
The longer handle also enables the hand to move up and down to find the sweet spot of balance with these longer rods.

Impressed with the resulting rod, I am currently working on a 'Rogue-Lite' version, having reduced the taper dimensions by 20% which makes it around a 5wt, with the longer handle at 15 3/4" . The rod is also 10' and so far looks very promising, light and lively in the hand and handles well a 5wt DT slow sink line which I briefly tried before the corks were put on and the ferrules glued.

Both rods are 'scallop' hollowed, but not overly so: .100" butt section, .075" mid section and none in the tips. Ferrules are hard drawn n/silver which in the case for the 'Lite" weigh 14 grams both sets. I use Tru-Oil as a finish and regular PacBay snakes.

A traditional style button on the end adds some weight back there, countering some out front.

I think the handles look appealing and suit longer rods, at a pinch they could also aid with mini spey type casts..

Malcolm

Photo shows Rogue River, on river..
Handles, RR top rod. 'Lite' in progress lower rod, complete with 1908 Hardy 'W' fitting.



Image

Image

kakaryan
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Posts: 173
Joined: 04/16/17 11:41

Re: Balancing big rods

#3

Post by kakaryan »

StePhDen wrote:
06/11/22 20:30
Hi All,

I just finished my take on the 8’6” DeLespinay Alosa.
I finished the rod and when casting with an 8wt line loaded onto a 5.5oz reel I noticed a lot of pressure on the pinky side of my palm.
So I suppose it is a 8'6" 8wt bamboo rod?

A 5.5oz reel is obviously too light. It is even too light on some graphite! For you reference some of my 8wt reels for my 8wt graphite rods: Sage 4280 6.2oz, Abel Super 7/8 6.8oz.....I sometimes use a sub 6oz Sage 4660 when I would be blind casting whole day and don't need much drag, it is on a Sage Method Elite 890 but that rod is a top end, very light weight, modern rod.

For your bamboo rod I think you need at least 7oz to around 10oz reel.

As mentioned above, a long front cork grip, and detachable rear grip (fighting butt), with traditional button or build with wood, also downlocking reelseat, would all help balancing a rod.

Others such as less coat and less wrapping may help on graphite, but wouldn't be significant on bamboo rod considering the heavy nature of the matarial.

kakaryan
Guide
Posts: 173
Joined: 04/16/17 11:41

Re: Balancing big rods

#4

Post by kakaryan »

oddsnrods wrote:
06/12/22 09:19
'Light rods are not necessarily comfortable or easy to fish with, as so much depends on the scientific distribution of the weight. There is no difficulty in reducing weight, but to do this, and yet retain power and utility, is a very difficult matter indeed'

This from Hardy's 1957 catalogue and probably still true today.

I would suggest looking for your answer lower down in the rod and consider a longer handle. I recently made a version of a 9' 6" Hardy Rogue River single handed 7wt 3pce. rod. The original I measured from had a 6" screw in extension handle taking it to 10'. I made my rod with the extension built in, so to speak, which aids in back casting plus while holding to fish as it comes up against and under the forearm rather than being supported by the wrist alone, possibly the cause of the tighter grip mentioned.The length of the handle is 18".
The longer handle also enables the hand to move up and down to find the sweet spot of balance with these longer rods.

Impressed with the resulting rod, I am currently working on a 'Rogue-Lite' version, having reduced the taper dimensions by 20% which makes it around a 5wt, with the longer handle at 15 3/4" . The rod is also 10' and so far looks very promising, light and lively in the hand and handles well a 5wt DT slow sink line which I briefly tried before the corks were put on and the ferrules glued.

Both rods are 'scallop' hollowed, but not overly so: .100" butt section, .075" mid section and none in the tips. Ferrules are hard drawn n/silver which in the case for the 'Lite" weigh 14 grams both sets. I use Tru-Oil as a finish and regular PacBay snakes.

A traditional style button on the end adds some weight back there, countering some out front.

I think the handles look appealing and suit longer rods, at a pinch they could also aid with mini spey type casts..

Malcolm

Photo shows Rogue River, on river..
Handles, RR top rod. 'Lite' in progress lower rod, complete with 1908 Hardy 'W' fitting.



Image

Image
This is nice. Have you tried spey casting/double hand overhead casting with it?

Those Rogue River I often saw online do not have a lower handle, like this.

https://vintagefishingtackle.co.uk/prod ... n-fly-rod/

StePhDen
Guide
Posts: 164
Joined: 02/20/20 13:21

Re: Balancing big rods

#5

Post by StePhDen »

kakaryan wrote:
StePhDen wrote:
06/11/22 20:30
Hi All,

I just finished my take on the 8’6” DeLespinay Alosa.
I finished the rod and when casting with an 8wt line loaded onto a 5.5oz reel I noticed a lot of pressure on the pinky side of my palm.
So I suppose it is a 8'6" 8wt bamboo rod?

A 5.5oz reel is obviously too light. It is even too light on some graphite! For you reference some of my 8wt reels for my 8wt graphite rods: Sage 4280 6.2oz, Abel Super 7/8 6.8oz.....I sometimes use a sub 6oz Sage 4660 when I would be blind casting whole day and don't need much drag, it is on a Sage Method Elite 890 but that rod is a top end, very light weight, modern rod.

For your bamboo rod I think you need at least 7oz to around 10oz reel.

As mentioned above, a long front cork grip, and detachable rear grip (fighting butt), with traditional button or build with wood, also downlocking reelseat, would all help balancing a rod.

Others such as less coat and less wrapping may help on graphite, but wouldn't be significant on bamboo rod considering the heavy nature of the matarial.
I built another 8wt (at least ended up as an 8wt) a year and a half ago that was balanced a lot better and I realized it was because I used a down locking reel seat.

The current rod does have a fighting butt, but it’s an up locking reel seat and the butt has an aluminium core which doesn’t do much for counterbalance. The butt is epoxied on there, I thought about trying to remove it and drill out the internals and fill it with lead but it’s a nice Bellinger reel seat and I don’t want to damage the insert or the hardware.

The reel I recommended the guy put on that rod is 7.5 oz, hopefully it helps the rod balance out. He could potentially wind some wire (lead or lead free) around the arbor before spooling backing/line to add some more weight.


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oddsnrods
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Posts: 1686
Joined: 04/22/08 18:00

Re: Balancing big rods

#6

Post by oddsnrods »

Quote: "This is nice. Have you tried spey casting/double hand overhead casting with it?

Those Rogue River I often saw online do not have a lower handle, like this."


As mentioned, the Rogue River rods were my versions, measured from a Hardy original, as far as I am aware the taper of the RR is not available on-line. The original RR had a removable button, the detachable handle came as an extra.

Not having a lighter 'spey style' I tried practice casting with a short #6 Scandi Body line, both overhead and double handed switch style and found the line seemed somewhat heavy for the rod, but it worked.

Much better, I briefly tried it with a vintage SA WF8F line on the river, which suited it very well. Casting single handed, the rod felt light and responsive and could put out a good distance with one short double haul. A 7 or 8 DT line I would think would also suit. Short Skagit style heads would be far too clunky I would thinker the rod making the tip bounce around overly so.

'Skating' surface flies for steelhead, or swinging larger 'wets' for them at the back end of the spring season on the Great Lakes tributaries would be just the job for the Rogue River.

For the Rogue River 'wet' 5wt, swinging wet and surface flies for browns is the intended purpose, so far..

Malcolm

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