Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

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billems
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Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#1

Post by billems »

Last year, I purchased a vintage 8-footer that was restored very faithfully to the original. The seller was a private party. Looks and casts great. However, while perusing a well known dealer's list of rods sold, I saw the rod I purchased listed, with it's photo and tube. It mentioned that that one tip had been scarfed. Man, I looked that rod over and it was hard to find, but I did it. I'll keep the rod, but it disappointed me that the man I bought it from didn't bother to mention it. If I ever want to sell it, I'll have to inform the buyer, which will knock down the price considerably. In the man's defense, perhaps he forgot. But I doubt it. Caveat Emptor.

barebo
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#2

Post by barebo »

I can understand your disappointment to say the least. I believe a lot of us would be more upset - much higher level upset, finding out that something not mentioned was considerably more than a loose stripper guide or a few hook dings in the finish. Scarf equates to broken at some point.
It should have been mentioned to you. Tough place to be.

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carl otto
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#3

Post by carl otto »

What's missing from the post is. Did you pay market rate for this rod or did you get it for less? Perhaps indicating the rod make and model might help people assess the situation better? Did you buy it to fish or to put on a shelf an admire as an investment? Did the seller purposefully deceive you or did they not know? If you researched after the purchase to check on the rods previous sale pedigree, why not before the purchase?

There is a lot left out of this initial post.

The beauty of bamboo is it CAN be repaired, rebuilt, refinished, etc. and have a continued life. A scarf done well, as you seem to indicate yours is, does not diminish the performance of the rod. I have seen seemingly catastrophic rod damage expertly repaired to a point no one can tell the work was done. After almost 50 years at this I could bet there are a lot of rods in peoples' hands that have major repairs unknown to the user or their former owners.

Certainly something should have been said if known, and the sale price should reflect this information. You say it casts great, so I assume it should fish well too? So fish it, find the joy in it the original maker intended the user to have. After all isn't that what it should be about?

Carl

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Hellmtflies
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#4

Post by Hellmtflies »

It's all about the old adage of "Buyer Beware". Due diligence has become more and more important these days. Sad.

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creakycane
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#5

Post by creakycane »

I think about it much the way Carl Otto expressed. I fished with an old Payne 202 yesterday that looks perfect, but like the rod in question, may have been refinished, wrapped, scarfed, sections replaced w/o me knowing. It casts a DT5 very well and is a delight. It looks close to new. It may be have had bodywork, frame straightening and a new quarter panel/paint job, but it fishes well. I hope your rod does, too.

The main thing that would irk me is if I paid alot more than the dealer price. Anyway, it is all tuition in the school of vintage cane rod collecting.

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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#6

Post by Flyman615 »

[quote="carl otto" post_id=954070 time=1655383076 user_id=618
The beauty of bamboo is it CAN be repaired, rebuilt, refinished, etc. and have a continued life. A scarf done well, as you seem to indicate yours is, does not diminish the performance of the rod. I have seen seemingly catastrophic rod damage expertly repaired to a point no one can tell the work was done. After almost 50 years at this I could bet there are a lot of rods in peoples' hands that have major repairs unknown to the user or their former owners.

... So fish it, find the joy in it the original maker intended the user to have. After all isn't that what it should be about?

Carl
[/quote]

I agree with Carl. After being on this forum for 18 years, I can say there are a whole bunch of people here who are deathly afraid of scarfs. If properly done, why I don't know.

And there are even more people who think every 50-to-80-year-old classic bamboo rod should be perfect and without flaws--past or present--(and a bargain to boot.) IMHO, neither is really warranted or realistic for that matter. Just another 2 cents...

Scott Z.
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billems
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#7

Post by billems »

carl otto wrote:
06/16/22 07:37
What's missing from the post is. Did you pay market rate for this rod or did you get it for less? Perhaps indicating the rod make and model might help people assess the situation better? Did you buy it to fish or to put on a shelf an admire as an investment? Did the seller purposefully deceive you or did they not know? If you researched after the purchase to check on the rods previous sale pedigree, why not before the purchase?

There is a lot left out of this initial post.

The beauty of bamboo is it CAN be repaired, rebuilt, refinished, etc. and have a continued life. A scarf done well, as you seem to indicate yours is, does not diminish the performance of the rod. I have seen seemingly catastrophic rod damage expertly repaired to a point no one can tell the work was done. After almost 50 years at this I could bet there are a lot of rods in peoples' hands that have major repairs unknown to the user or their former owners.

Certainly something should have been said if known, and the sale price should reflect this information. You say it casts great, so I assume it should fish well too? So fish it, find the joy in it the original maker intended the user to have. After all isn't that what it should be about?

Carl
Geeze Carl, you seem miffed. I paid what I think is the market price. I don't put rods on the shelf to admire as an investmeynt, for heaven's sake. I'm a working class guy with three bamboo rods to my name. The dealer who sold it mentioned the scarf; I believe it was incumbent (read: honest) to mention the fix. That is all I'm saying.

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carl otto
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#8

Post by carl otto »

Sorry that is your perception Scott. It seemed to me you were posting in hopes of getting some experiential assistance from the collective here. In order to provide that assistance a few additional questions needed to be asked so a clear rational response could be formulated. So I asked them hoping more people could enter the conversation and assist.

The effort was done to help. I think some very good and valid points have been raised by those who have also chosen to help in their responses.

I do not know who you are. There are collectors, users, buyers and sellers on this site. You did not indicate which you are. There are folks with a great deal of knowledge inhabiting this site and there are folks who are newbies visiting this site. I still do not know if we are talking about a Montague Redwing or a Garrison 209E.

Carl

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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#9

Post by 3creeks »

Carl it was Bill who replied back to you. I agree with you that there are all manner of nuances with this, and I'd like to hear more details, but I agree with Bill that the scarf should have been revealed. Period. End of story. Obviously the effects of that scarf on a Payne's value are greater than on a classic Monty rod. But those differences are peripheral to the failure to disclose that the original rod was altered. So are the buyer's intended purpose for buying said rod, whether to fish or collect. Maybe he fishes it, gets tired of it and can't get his money back in the next transaction.

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Flyman615
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#10

Post by Flyman615 »

carl otto wrote:
06/16/22 14:57
Sorry that is your perception Scott.
Carl
Not my perception, Carl.

Scott Z.
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"An undisturbed river is as perfect as we will ever know, every refractive slide of cold water a glimpse of eternity" - Thomas McGuane

Skimpole
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#11

Post by Skimpole »

Yes the scarf should have been mentioned, but as the OP said perhaps that was an oversight. However, given the tight market these days, a contact to the seller may have yielded a refund and apology, even with the passage of time. Not clear if this was attempted.

Bill M.
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#12

Post by Bill M. »

Certainly a known scarf should have been mentioned in a "for sale" description. But...there is a lot we do not know here. One think we do not know is if the seller knew? If the rod is "restored" I think that would somewhat reduce the value loss from the scarf anyway. And fishing it reduces it value as a collector. So...it should have been reveled but it may not be a huge monetary loss. I am not one that thinks you can fish rods without reducing their collector value.

GRASSNGLASS
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#13

Post by GRASSNGLASS »

If the seller knew it should have been mentioned. Period.

billems
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#14

Post by billems »

GRASSNGLASS wrote:
06/20/22 14:54
If the seller knew it should have been mentioned. Period.

Thank you. That was all I was trying to say. If I wanted to sell the rod, I'd mention the scarf and would, of course sell if for $200 less. I've mentioned no names; I'm giving the seller the benefit of a doubt. I'm just saying it should've been mentioned is all. I still don't understand quite why I'm being lectured by some of the posters. But I'll drop the subject.

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teter
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#15

Post by teter »

GRASSNGLASS wrote:
06/20/22 14:54
If the seller knew it should have been mentioned. Period.
I agree. I have bought a number of rods that I knew had been scarfed and have had only one or two fail. Better to know why.
I have rods that I own that I have sent in for scarfs. In some cases I don't remember, and can't tell, which tip was scarfed. But if I sell any of them, I will certainly disclose the scarf.
It's not a matter of whether I trust the scarf. It's whether a potential buyer feels comfortable knowing about it. It's the ethical thing to do, in my opinion.
That's not to say that my memory (or my records) are perfect, and it's conceivable that I might sell a rod without remembering that it was repaired. But it's not something that I would fail to disclose consciously.

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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#16

Post by bassman »

I had a rod I broke the tip on. Had it scarfed. When I sold the rod I told the buyer that one tip had been scarfed, where it had been scarfed, and that a guide had been re-wrapped. I could not tell him which tip it was since I could not determine which one it was myself. Yes, scarfing can be amazingly well done and the repairs hard to tell or remember. I agree you should have been told but if I had not told the person about the scarfing on the rod I sold I guarantee he would not have found the spot it was done and never known about it.

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winston59
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#17

Post by winston59 »

Yes, I agree scarf should of been mentioned.

Another thought came to mind. Was the price you paid close to what the listed price with the mention of the scarf in the listing you found? If so than you paid near to what the owner who sold it to you paid. Perhaps the seller who sold the rod to you, the scarf was not that big of a deal to them. The price was right and didn't mention it.

You really need to ask the party who sold you the rod these questions.

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winston59
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#18

Post by winston59 »

Yes, I agree scarf should of been mentioned.

Another thought came to mind. Was the price you paid close to what the listed price with the mention of the scarf in the listing you found? If so than you paid near to what the owner who sold it to you paid. Perhaps the seller who sold the rod to you, the scarf was not that big of a deal to them. The price was right and didn't mention it.

You really need to ask the party who sold you the rod these questions.

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reelsmith
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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#19

Post by reelsmith »

There is a chance your seller bought it at a show and his seller (guy with the list) forgot to mention the scarf.

Or, your seller may have bought it from someone who got it from the listing you found and the scarf was not disclosed in that intermediary transaction.

Have you tried reaching out to the seller? A friendly, non-accusatory FYI-note might shed more light on the situation.

Personally, I prefer to exhaust all possibilities before jumping to "guilty until proven innocent".

Dean.

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Re: Sad Reveleation on a Rod Purchase

#20

Post by BigDog57 »

I completely agree that the scarf should have been disclosed if the seller knew about it.
But it also seems that by your description, the rod casts well and the repair is such that you had not noticed it until you read the past listing.
Obviously some very high quality repair work.
So you are left with choices. Either let the sour taste spoil your enjoyment of the rod, or you can take it and fish the heck out of it, and as Carl said much better than I could: "find the joy in it the original maker intended"

Clayton

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