Talleur and Gander River flies

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Bill Terry
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Talleur and Gander River flies

#1

Post by Bill Terry »

I have been tying flies for nearly 60 years, but I never tied flies for Atlantic Salmon. I have only gotten interested in pursuing those fish in the past few years, and on my first major salmon-fishing expedition (pre-COVID), the travel agent through whom I arranged the trip supplied flies appropriate for the destination (Norway's Orkla) and time of year (July). I still had most of those flies on my second trip (July of this year to the Restigouche), so I didn't acquire any more. Most of those flies are on double and even treble hooks.

But next summer I'm going to the Gander River in Newfoundland. Unless I'm misinformed, the rules there require single barbless hooks. I looked on the Web for sources of well tied salmon flies, and the best I could find were on the website of the Gaspe Fly Company. But they run 5-8 Canadian dollars apiece. Ouch! So I decided to try my hand at tying them myself.

I acquired "Pretty and Practical Atlantic Salmon Flies," by Dick Talleur, which is a tutorial giving very detailed tying instructions for a selection of flies of increasing complexity. I also got a list of hot flies for the Gander from the lodge where I'll be staying (Gander River Lodge). I have been working my way through the book, and when I learned enough to tie a pattern for the Gander, I tied a few.

Tying basic hairwing Atlantic Salmon flies is not difficult, if you have been tying #16-22 Parachute Adamses and the like. The salmon flies are so much larger than ordinary trout flies that the experienced tyer will have no trouble with them. As the complexity increases, they become more challenging, and if you want to tackle traditional salmon flies with 37 exotic components per fly, well, that's a whole different ballgame.

The attached photo shows my work so far. Some of the Talleur flies don't have quite the right materials, because I'm loath to pay $20 or so for materials to tie one fly. And some of the proportions could be better--it's my first time doing these, you know. But on the whole I'm rather pleased with them, and I think the fish won't care about my imperfections. They'll care a lot more about my crappy Spey casting and clumsy presentations, but I'm working on them, too!

Image

The Coachmen and Royal Coachmen on the right side of the left half aren't part of the new production. I tied them decades ago. They just happen to be small enough to fit on the edge there. And I didn't tie the Gray Ghosts on the bottom right, either. I bought them from Herter's back in the day, but never used them.
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gt05254
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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#2

Post by gt05254 »

Very nice! And I'm sure the lodge told you what sizes you might need. Do the fish a favor, fish only singles, and crimp the barb down in your vise before you start tying the fly.
Gary

P.S. If you have access to the internet, there are a zillion helpful salmon fly tying tutorials on youtube. Davie MacPhail's are particularly helpful and well done.

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#3

Post by wbailey »

In addition to Davie McPhail, who is one of the best, there is also tightlinevideo:

https://youtu.be/lTbS-yqTnX0

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#4

Post by Bill Terry »

gt05254 wrote:
11/22/22 17:34
Very nice! And I'm sure the lodge told you what sizes you might need. Do the fish a favor, fish only singles, and crimp the barb down in your vise before you start tying the fly.
Gary
Besides being required in Newfoundland, as I understand it, barbless hooks have many virtues. On the rare occasions when I hook myself or my clothing, it is much easier to get unhooked. It’s not only easier on the fish, but it’s much less stressful on me to unhook a fish caught on a barbless hook. I do not find that fish hooked on barbless hooks are no more likely to get off in play than fish hooked on barbed hooks, but what the heck? I’m going to release them anyway. So I have pinched the barbs off hooks before putting them in the vise for years. I sometimes neglect to pinch the barbs down on flies I buy, but I should do that as soon as I buy them so I don’t forget.

Nevertheless, one can get hooked so deeply with a barbless hook that surgery is required. Once in New Zealand, I was fishing a dry-dropper rig, and when I brought a fish to hand that took the fly at the end (I’d call it the point fly, but terminology differs), it slipped out of my hand, and I caught the top fly in my finger so deeply that it went in all the way to the start of the dressing. I couldn’t work it out, so we went to the nearest clinic and had the doc on duty dig it out with a scalpel. By the way, there was no charge—Kiwis like their tourists.

Yes, the lodge recommended sizes 6, 8, 10, and 12. The flies in the left half of the picture are size 8. I’m about to start tying some in size 6.

The size designations of different hooks are not consistent. Daiichi 2161 hooks in sizes 4 and 6 are smaller than Daiichi 2421 hooks in sizes 6 and 8, respectively. I’m using the 2421 hooks as the standard measurement, as they are similar in size to Ahrex hooks of the same designation.
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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#5

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys, Nothing makes a salmon fly a salmon fly more than Jungle Cock. That, at least, is what I think. Your flies look great......

Jay Edwards

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dder
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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#6

Post by dder »

Think you got some great trips planned. Buddy of mine invited me to spend 2 weeks fishing in New Found Land in 2019 and it was great trip. He is originally from Nova Scotia so had been there before and knew of a fellow that is guide and would travel with us so fished quite a few rivers there, drove lots at night and camped out . Heres a picture of the Gander and a lodge boat running down stream ,was on 1st of July. For flys mostly fished small to me ,6-8-10s and sparse with deer hair wings tied low and buy or tie some bombers as well for skating. I,m pretty sure it,s all barbless and no weight flys as well.
Image
flys on top of row were most successful, I only had # 6 hooks but guide had some 8 and 10 s that i bought from him Have great trip.
Image

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#7

Post by gt05254 »

Regarding hook sizes, here's a little chart I did comparing various brands (pre-Ahrex - too pricey for me anyway):
[https://theriverscourse.blogspot.com/20 ... -10-8.html][/url]
I've done a couple updates on size 10's over time on the blog, but I'm too lazy to hunt them up.
Gary

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#8

Post by Hellmtflies »

If nothing else, you could not have gone wrong by following the work of Talleur. He is/was one of the best teachers of fly tying I had ever crossed paths with. Top shelf. Your flies will work just fine! I've never tied a Salmon fly before either and I have no desire to fish for them. ( A bit out of my financial league. :) ) But that said, Talleur's trout flies and his instructions regarding same are some of the best IMHO. His written work has always come through for me over the years.

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#9

Post by Bill Terry »

Thanks for the kind words and good wishes.

Thanks for the pictures, dder. The boat picture shows how I’ll get to the lodge. The picture of the flies shows something I have been wondering about: the hook is relatively large, but the dressing on the fly only occupies a small part of the hook shank. I have seen that before. What is the rationale for that? Just to help hook the fish more securely?

Gary, your charts are eye-opening. Clearly, there’s no standardization. But I find it perplexing that two hook styles by the same company (Daiichi) are so different in their size designations.

Hellmtflies, yes, Talleur’s book is great. He gives so many techniques new to me that I’m constantly delighted.
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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#10

Post by gt05254 »

When there is a small body on a larger hook, it is usually what is referred to as a low-water tie. And low-water ties are usually tied on lighter (shank diameter) hooks. Traditional salmon angling thinking dictates that smaller bodied flies are needed when low water conditions exist; the opposite being true, they say, in higher water conditions. Personally, I just fish 10's and 12's in low water, rather than tying a size 10 fly on a size 6 hook. Makes for a tidier fly box from where I sit. Whatever floats your boat.

And then of course there are the "spey" fly hooks, in the 1.5 to other odd numbers like 3 and 7. Good way for manufacturers to keep folks buying those oh-so-essential (they tell you) new hooks. I suspect there are a bunch of old-timey guys on the rivers that never switch away from the old Mustad up eye hooks (#36890 0 with the clunkiest eye return on the river as well) and they do just fine.

Like I said, whatever floats your boat. Your hook, your rules.
Gary

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#11

Post by Bill Terry »

Thanks, Gary.

Where can I find a good variety of salmon fly hooks? I have been getting mine from J. Stockard, where the selection is rather limited. I have been tying some of my flies on Daiichi 2161 hooks, but I'm not too keen on them because the hook eye is not symmetrical from side to side. The other hooks they have are low-water hooks, made as you say from lighter wire. So I have tied most of my flies on them, such as Daiichi 2421. I haven't tried the Mustad Heritage SL73U, which is described as a low-water hook, but which is made from 2X heavy wire. Are you familiar with them? What do you think of them?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#12

Post by gt05254 »

For what it's worth (not much), I tie on Gamakatsu T10-6H's. For 10's, Maruto. Both are easy googles to find, or the auction site. BTW, the Maruto's are a very good value in all sizes. But like everything, ask one more person, and you'll get one more opinion. Oh, for a little heavier wire, can't miss with Tiemco 7999. The Mustad you mention is a little to lite in the wire for my taste. Probably someone(s) out there love it.
Oh, and if you must tie low-waters on light wire, the Daiichi 2139 (the Ververka hook) is a very pretty hook. Which of course means they just stopped making it (and they did). Frankly, some of the new hook choices, like the Ahrex, are simply over-priced in my mind. Your mileage may vary.
Gary

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#13

Post by Bill Terry »

I have observed over many years that if you find something you like, you should get a lifetime supply, because they will soon stop making it. Thanks for your suggestions.
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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#14

Post by gt05254 »

That's exactly what I do.
Gary

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#15

Post by dder »

Bill, the fellow driving the boat did a great job running the rapids down stream through some water and rocks. Reason I tyed smaller bodys is because I didn,t have smaller hooks and no time to order any. Was a last minute trip. The flys from our guide were on 8- 10,s and not complicated ,floss tail, short red or orange,wool body with a tinsel rib ,black ,brown ,red or green ,usually silver and bit of mallard or ginny fowl throat. Some silver tinsel back ,wool front.Very sparse.We were fishing with scandi heads and poly leaders so just under water ,not deep. And some bombers for the slower slicks and pools. My experience with Atlantics is limited to one trip to Nova Scotia and one to NFLand so can,t say know much. Found them to be good fighters, lots of jumps. The parr are something I wasn,t used to,they are hungry little fellows and will pull fly even if not hooked. People on east coast I found very helpfull and nice although most I met were fishing on rivers which likely bring out the best in us all.Found it took a couple of days to adapt to the language in NFL but you do. Lots of Lord Thunderin Jesus and Me Son mixed in , Have a great trip to the Restigouche as well, never fished in New Brunswick or Quebec although took ferry to Labrador and it lands in Quebec . One other bit of advice is take good bug spray, lots of bugs. But fishing was great even for a novice, nice bright fish.

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#16

Post by dder »

Heres a picture from river by Hawks bay, fellow walked down with is son, knew right where he wanted to go, explained bit to son, one or maybe 2 casts, fish on, young guy got rod handed to him, landed fish and they took it and left. No fooling about it for locals but nice to see young fellow getting supper for family . Water was high,in the trees.Image

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#17

Post by Bill Terry »

dder wrote:
11/25/22 12:50
Found it took a couple of days to adapt to the language in NFL but you do. Lots of Lord Thunderin Jesus and Me Son mixed in ,
That's for sure. One of my most memorable trips ever was to the Anne Marie Lodge in Labrador, so I got several days' exposure to what passes for English there. Things like "We don't gots that" were painful to this grammarian's ears.

But the Newfoundlanders are some of the most hospitable people anywhere. On one of my frequent visits to New York City (to visit my wife's grandkids), we had the pleasure of seeing the Broadway musical "Come From Away," which dramatizes the hospitality of the people of Gander who took stranded air travelers into their homes after their flights to the U.S. were waved off when U.S. airspace was closed on 9/11.

And speaking of the Labrador trip, here's a tip for anyone planning a trip there in August. The lodge's planning information said that there is a big hatch of "green drakes" there at that time. Assuming that they meant the Eastern green drake, Ephemera guttulata, I tied a bunch of imitations in size 8. But their green drake is actually a member of the genus Hexagenia, which is more like a size 4. And the guide didn't have flies for clients. I didn't do well when fishing to that hatch. However, fishing the inlets and outlets of the lakes with deer-hair mouse imitations was thrilling. Brookies of 7 pounds took the mice with detonation and toilet-flush rises. Uff da!
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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#18

Post by 60InchDV8 »

G’Day,
The guide will no doubt have a well chewed assortment of hair wings and bugs impaled underneath the gunnel for the current conditions. If you prefer to dress your own, which always enhances the thrill of a take, call the camp or speak with the guide a week or so for current river conditions and the size of the hot patterns.
Two of my NLF favs are a Black Ghost Streamer which will also tempt a trophy Brook trout lurking nearby, and a “Mike Crosby” style Blue Charm that is tied sparsely with a moose hair wing.
I’d also recommend tying your flies with the finished head 1/8 inch behind the hook eye to facilitate “riffling” your fly or skating it across the smooth surface of a glide pool or the the swirling tumbling water of a run. This technique originated on the Rock when frugal Newfie guides discovered fishing full dressed patterns with a broken gut eye, that were discarded by their British sports, was an exciting surface presentation. Lee Wulff was introduced to riffling by his guides and popularized it.

I’m sure you’re going to enjoy the ambience of angling on the “Rock”, which is highlighted with an invite to “kiss the cod” with a shot of Screech, along with a slice of seal flipper pie.

Regards from the Restigouche...Jim

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#19

Post by SalmoNewf »

You’re getting some good advice here and the flies you’ve tied are good as well. Wouldn’t hurt to have a couple of #4’s as well in case you hit high water or just as a change. You will find that fishing hitched wet flies will work well (moose hair wings will help keep the flies riffling properly on the surface) but you need some Bombers in a couple of colours. W. W. Doak has good illustrations of the currently popular varieties.

https://www.wwdoak.com/doak.php?index=15

A basic assortment of wets for Newfoundland would have to include regular and white winged Blue Charms, Black Bear Green Butts, Undertakers, Florescent green Cossebooms, Silver Blues and something bright in yellow and/or orange tones. I’ve had great success in recent years with a reduced version of the Dhoon, a fly included in Michael Radencich’s “Twenty Salmon Flies” step by step book. I’m attaching a picture of one of my boxes from last spring, lots of low water style flies which worked well this past dry summer.




Image

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Re: Talleur and Gander River flies

#20

Post by SalmoNewf »

A couple of other points….

Yes, you are only allowed to use single barbless hooks with no additional weight on the hook or on the leader.

Depending on the lodge, water levels etc. you won’t just be travelling to the lodge by boat but likely fishing from it at least some of the time or even most of the time. No harm in taking and using a light two handed rod but the Gander salmon run is 90%+ grilse so a light line weight (I’ve been using a 12 1/2 foot #6 this past year) would give both you and the fish a better time and still handle the biggest fish you are likely to encounter of about 10lbs. You will find 9 to 10 foot single handed rods in 7 and 8 weight the most commonly used and useful for the Gander.

I noticed one of the previous posters mentioned skating Bombers and that can work too but dead drifting Bombers, and Wulffs as well, is usually more productive. Wulffs (I use White and Royal Wulffs) down to size 14 can be deadly at times.

Hope you have a great trip!

Bob

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