The Scientific Anglers Lines

[Drossi]

Well, when I was working for a local FF shop, we sold SA lines and each year SA aloud us each to purchase 5 lines at cost per year. I was able to by 5 lines each year, all DT's, for a whopping $35.00. Yup, $7.00 per line. I purchased 5 every year. Still have new old stock coming out of my ears. The thought of paying over a hundred bucks for a line is just silly to me.

How much margin did the individual flyshop reap or did the majority go back to SA? If $5 is "at cost" that assumption means it covered all SA's expenses including production, marketing, overhead (test trips!!! ), and transport, etc. Depending upon SA's target profit (i.e. markup from at cost) there's a whole lot of margin to go around between $5 at cost and even $50 retail price.

[dublhaul]

I can't speak directly to SA's margins, but generally, in many areas of fly fishing gear, the wholesale price (the price that dealers pay) is around 50-60% of the suggested retail price. More expensive items might have lower percentage markups, and inexpensive items (e.g., those "impulse items" such as nippers, strike indicators, etc., placed at the approach to the check-out) have larger margins. As a hypothetical example, say a fly line retails for $100. The dealer might have paid $50-60 for it. And the manufacturer's cost (including all the overhead) might have been half of that.There are all sorts of variables. Mfgrs might offer better pricing or terms for larger or pre-season orders. Or considerable discounts for product being discontinued. Just like at a small retail shop, mfgrs would prefer to know ahead of time how much product they're going to need to produce for the year. They can then order materials accordingly, and benefit from not coming up short, or having excess. Planning and budgeting! And some of their suppliers require certain lead times. If the price of raw materials increases, those have to be incorporated down the line, either by the mfgr, distributor, retailer or customer.

Chasing the "how much does it cost" rabbit is often unrealistic. Take a cane rod as an example. And an individual builder. No middle man. Say he prices the rod at $XXXX. What's the "cost". The price of the culm, ferrules, cork, seat, guides, thread, bag and tube? Labor? Shop incidentals? As an example of how nonsensical the question CAN get, I once asked a line mfgr rep to back out the costs of a line. He grinned and said something on the order of "So, you want me to start with the price of crude oil for the PVC or what?"

[Greg Reynolds]

Besides Tom’s 406 lines we also got Wulff Bamboo Special (their Long Belly line with a different color) also made by SA

And the Orvis lines

Orvis has owned Scientific Anglers since 2013.

[ibookje]

Since 2018?

[Greg Reynolds]

Since 2018?

Since 2013 Jay. They also purchased Ross Reels in 2013 but sold them after about 6 months.

Best...

[ibookje]

Oh ok, I thought it was more recent but you're right!

[carl otto]

Let me get this right, "dublhaul" is saying that if a retail price for a fly line is say $100, the price to the shop is $50 and the total price including profit to the manufacturer is $25. Where did the missing $25 go to? My previous summary shows a different scenario.

The wholesale to retail markup is large because the burden of paying for, stocking and storing that inventory falls wholly on the retailer. A commercial retail business tends to have a much higher operational cost than a manufacturer.

A manufacturer has employees producing product every hour, pay lower rents on industrial space, can garner tax incentives for locating in a certain community, has lesser insurance cost for not having to deal with the public, can locate in the most lucrative real estate market, etc.

A shop has to pay their employees even if no sales are occurring, have to pay a higher rent for being on a commercial street/mall/etc., have to have liability insurance to cover the general public on their premises, be open other than 8-5 during the week and much longer hours during certain seasons and a whole host of other things.

Some shops sit on their inventory for years and others believe in discounting (having a sale) their stock to turnover and increase cash flow at a lower price to afford next year's inventory. At a large enough scale the latter is an operational model. A small shop has a harder time doing this. Also in many cases, smaller shops get a different wholesale cost (higher) than larger shops (lower) based on volume done.

The manufacturer has to be able to turn out a desirable product that has a wholesale cost low enough to allow the retail business sector to competitively sell their product at a profit to remain in business. If they do not they go out of business. Basic market economy stuff. So someone like SA is in a competitive market with Rio, Cortland, Okuma, and others. If they do not deliver a product at the determined market price to quality they would not exist.

All of us Monday morning quarterbacks have no affect on these businesses. The market prevails. One votes with their pocket book. This determines the final outcome of success or failure.

Carl

[carl otto]

And finally;

Did some research back to older catalogs. In 2008 the top SA line was $99.95 retail, their Mastery line $69.95. There current pricing shows a less than 1.3% yearly rise in their prices. A healthy economy operates on around an expectant 2% inflation rate. I notice similar escalation in the other line companies' pricing over the same time period. This would indicate they have been towing the line to keep their costs in check.

Carl

[PYochim]

Unless that line is a handmade silk line, that is. Which is the only kind of line that should really be used on bamboo rods, as it is what they were designed for.

Please elaborate.

[kevinhaney1]

I was talking about vintage rods, made before 1960 or so, not rods being made by modern makers. When these rods were designed, all that were available were silk lines, so that is what they were designed for. Using plastic lines on these vintage rods is like putting modern high performance tires on a Ford model T. IMHO…

Kevin.

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, I've been using some Maxcatch lines lately. SA-like I'd say.

Jay Edwards

[carl otto]

Hmmmm......

A fly rod is designed to cast a line, typically of a specific designated line weight. The composition material of that weighted line does not matter as long as it produces the desired loading the rod was designed for.

Before there were line weight system, rods typically were designated by rod weight or ferrule size and/or the old alphabet system. Again, one found a line (and at that time lines were made of only braided silk) of the correct weight to load the rod properly which the owner felt worked for them. Rods built for silk typically had smaller strippers, as the lines were thinner.

As I said before, this myth about rods only being made for silk lines is hocum. Unless one can back this with some real science (I am all ears) let's dispense with it.

Carl

[jim royston]

Paul Young offered double taper nylon fly lines, from Cortland and Sunset, at least as early as 1948.

[16pmd]

Scientific Anglers was started in the mid 40's and fiberglass rods at about the same time. Nylon lines were commonly used with both the
then-new glass rods as well as with bamboo rods. Many of the old-timers I knew in the 60's were happily switching away from silk to the new plastic lines that floated without fuss and bother when they used them with their bamboo rods. Many were expert anglers and talented casters who gave their old silk lines away in favor of new lines that didn't require such attention to maintenance. I know, because I was a recipient of some of those very nice silk lines. In my opinion, silk lines for bamboo rods are a preference, not a clear advantage, and many of those old timers happily used their new plastic lines on their best old bamboo rods.

[Bill Terry]

Even a DT “true to weight” line must by its very design be under loading a correctly labelled rod at <30ft and overloading it at >30ft.

I don't think so. If you want to cast farther, you need to load the rod more, which the extra mass of the extra line does. Conversely, at shorter distances you don't need to load the rod as much, so the shorter line isn't under-loading the rod.

As far as I'm concerned, a line whose first 30 feet weigh 140 grains is a 5-wt line, at 160 grains it's a 6-wt line, etc. A 160-grain line labeled WF5F is mislabeled. And if a rod labeled as 5-wt balances best with a line of 160 grains, it's a 6-wt rod, regardless of the label.

I deplore the current mislabeling of lines and rods, which has rendered the line-weight standards almost meaningless.

Now, variations in taper design for different purposes make sense. For example, if you're throwing bushy flies on long leaders for short distances, a line with a long front taper and a uniform belly won't work as well as a line with a short front taper and more mass up front. But if its first 30 feet weigh 140 grains, it's still a 5-weight line.

The idea that bamboo rods are especially suited to silk lines is wrong, in my opinion. Any rod will cast a silk line better than a synthetic line, because, for a given line weight, the thinner diameter of a silk line offers less air resistance. However, I will never buy a silk line, because they are too much trouble.

[Brooks]

>>”I deplore the current mislabeling of lines and rods, which has rendered the line-weight standards almost meaningless.”<<

Rod makers, and specifically graphite rods to be debut’d annually at the international flyfishing wholesale shows, started the entire mess of mixed up line weights. The line companies then built heavy lines to match the ridiculously stiff/fast trout rods.

Customers (pilgrims), not knowing much about the simple physics of bending a rod, are generally not comfortable putting a labeled six-weight line on a labeled five-weight rod.

“But my guide told me to buy a five-weight rod, but you’re saying, put a six-weight line on it? So I should buy a six-weight rod then, right?”

I personally think Sage, competing against the other brands at the industry trade shows, started the whole thing back in the mid-to-late 90’s:

A new rod would be introduced at the shows. All the jedi casters (the O’keefes, Rajeff’s, Cook’s etc) would cast the rods at the casting pond lanes (two inches of water in troughs 100 feet long) and when the audience would see a so-called “super-X
five-weight” rod cast a piece yarn over the railing a hundred feet out at the end of the casting lane (to much applause),the crowd, the buyer’s, and the “industry”, would proclaim the “super-x” rod as the greatest new “five-weight” rod introduced for the next season.

And then the line makers made lines to match the “super x”.

And the rest is the bastardization of any sort of industry line standards.

[carl otto]

I have not thoroughly researched this and interject with only the current SA shop catalog in my hands. It states very clearly for each of their lines the material composition, the use design purposes and weights for their lines. One can immediately see which ones are overweight and have some understanding as to why. They clearly state, 1/2 size or full size overspecified standards. As one goes down through this post we can see that the choice of purchasing a line is the buyers. Certainly the uninitiated and/or the folks who choose not to understand what they are buying are going to not achieve a knowledgeable purchase for proper use. I guess this premise has been around since time eternal. It is unfortunate that some should prey upon the naivete of some purchasers, but to those who want to make an informed choice the information is there.

It is the same with all of our purchasing choices. As I oft say, chance favors the prepared mind.

Carl

[Short Tip]

I have not thoroughly researched this and interject with only the current SA shop catalog in my hands. It states very clearly for each of their lines the material composition, the use design purposes and weights for their lines. One can immediately see which ones are overweight and have some understanding as to why. They clearly state, 1/2 size or full size overspecified standards. As one goes down through this post we can see that the choice of purchasing a line is the buyers. Certainly the uninitiated and/or the folks who choose not to understand what they are buying are going to not achieve a knowledgeable purchase for proper use. I guess this premise has been around since time eternal. It is unfortunate that some should prey upon the naivete of some purchasers, but to those who want to make an informed choice the information is there.

It is the same with all of our purchasing choices. As I oft say, chance favors the prepared mind.

Carl

Sounds like you think buyers need to do more research into the lines they buy. If only, if only, the manufacturers could come up with a system to simplify this process. Perhaps a numbering system, where lines were sold by weight range and a number applied. Oh, wait, we already have that?

As Brooks pointed out, rod manufacturers and line manufacturers are caught up in a silly game, brought on by the "arms race" in graphite rods. To suggest that buyers are remiss by not reading the fine print in the shop catalog, rather than the big ol' number printed on the box, seems like blaming the victim rather than the culprits.

[trland]

Sounds like you think buyers need to do more research into the lines they buy. If only, if only, the manufacturers could come up with a system to simplify this process. Perhaps a numbering system, where lines were sold by weight range and a number applied. Oh, wait, we already have that?

As Brooks pointed out, rod manufacturers and line manufacturers are caught up in a silly game, brought on by the "arms race" in graphite rods. To suggest that buyers are remiss by not reading the fine print in the shop catalog, rather than the big ol' number printed on the box, seems like blaming the victim rather than the culprits.

+1

I weigh all my lines and don’t believe what the “big ol’ number” says. But not many people are going to do that. It’s amazing how many lines are off by one (or more) line weight standard. But then so are the rods. So why call a rod and line a 5 weight when in reality they’re both a 7. It shouldn’t be up to the customer to have to figure out how to match a $100+ line to a $1,000+ rod. FWIW, I have one 406 line and it is dead on spec. Next line I get will be a 406 also.

[carl otto]

I believe we all can agree that the fly line market has changed their marketing and labeling due to the composite graphite...rod market. In many of our minds, why promote something as a 5 weight when according to the AFFTA specifications set out by the industry it is actually a 6 or 7 weight line? A 5 weight line is specified as being a fly line where the first 30 feet of the line is supposed to weigh in a range around 140 grains (134-146). How that weight is distributed in that 30 feet makes up more specific casting characteristics of that line type/design profile.

This marketing morph is not unique to this industry. Do we believe in posted car mileages for car sales. Do you believe in the clothing size label or do you try an article on to see if it fits? Etc., etc.,......

The buyer needs to be aware. In today's world of computers I go to the SA site and there posted in as large a type face as I choose to create on my computer are all their specifications and line design profiles. Making a choice is relatively easy. No fine print to rail about in today's world. I go to the 406 site (Their lines are made by Scientific Anglers) and there is no line design profile to see, just professing the expected AFFTA standards. In my mind I would like to know how a 406 WF5 compares to a SA Mastery type WF5 at the same price point, are they different in profile or just color, or both? (Like one can see a Wulff Long Belly and the Wulff Bamboo are the same line profiles, just different colors.) Yes, I understand 406 markets the fact that say for a WF line their profiles are a little different for each line weight, meaning the weight distribution varys a little depending on the line weight. So the 406 marketing throws a new additional wrinkle into the mix. I wonder if this slight difference based on all the other variables in bamboo is of great importance to most people? So I hope to go to a show and find out. Being able to compare apples to apples would seem to me a progressive company's advantage. An informed consumer would be an asset to continued return sales.

Oh well, it all comes down to which line do you personally prefer to cast with each rod you may have and the conditions you are casting in. You make the choice and the purchase. Be it informed or not.

Carl