Silk line weight

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Palakona123
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Silk line weight

#1

Post by Palakona123 »

Out of pure curiosity I found the weights of the different Hardy «corona» DT lines, and compared them to the modern AFTM and AFFTA numbers. The salmon lines turned out to be quite «normal» in regards to weight, starting at about #6-7, which suits the lightest Hardy DH rods very well. What surprised me though was the weight of the trout lines, and especially the lightest lines, IEI and IDI.

The IEI turned out to be a #1-2 line, and was recommended for the Marvel, 6 1/2 CC De France and 8’ Fairchild. The IDI was spot on #3, and was recommended for the 7’ and 8’ CC De France, 9’ and 9’6’’ Fairchild and 8’6’’ and 9’ Fairy rods, just to give some examples from the more well known Hardy rods.
This is obviously not correct, those who have tried the Marvel or CC De France rods will know that they are 4/5 rods, even a #6 for those who overload their rods a bit.
Some of the reason is probably that these lines had fairly long, fine front tapers, and thus the weight is a bit light if these are not deducted from the length. After a bit of searching I found a very usefull PDF about silk lines (a few remarks about silk lines, can be found on overmywaders.com) where somebody had done a much better job than me on this subject. The weights where a bit more reasonable, but still light. The IEI is a #2,4 and the IDI is a 4,2, a bit light for CC De France and Marvel rods. This leads me too think three things:

1) Many cane and graphite rods are rated for too heavy lines, and perform better with a lighter line, especially when handling long lines. The drawback is of course that if your casting techniqe is not perfect, you will have a hard time bending the rod, or casting at all. Thus, many overload their rods a bit, as I see it. JJH held several records, and I would belive that he didn’t need a heavy line to make a rod bend and perform well.
2) The thinner diameter of silk gives less air / wind resistance, and as such, a lighter line could be used, bending the rod less, but still the line would cast just as well.
3) A combination of 1 and 2.

I have been thinking on buying some silk lines for my Hardy cane rods, heavy and light, and wondered what peoples thoughts are on this subject. Is there a good reason for why such light lines are recomended, or could I just go one line weight down when using silk? My experience with silk is small and limits itself to old lines and #10 + salmon lines.

All input is appreciated.

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Shrimpman
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Re: Silk line weight

#2

Post by Shrimpman »

I have only experience with a couple of old, perfect lines that I reconditioned, one a King Eider and the other a Cortland Ivanhoe, both HEH. Perhaps I was lighter with the varnish application than the originals, but I found they did not at all load five weight rods... unless the expectation/feeling of a rod loading was different at that time. They both have very fine tapers, by the way.

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Caneghost
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Re: Silk line weight

#3

Post by Caneghost »

I have only one silk line, a modern, brand new one, and have not yet taken the plunge of spooling it up. I wonder if your quandary may have its roots in the new and old standards having incongruencies? The AFTMA standards are based upon a range of grain weights for the first 30 feet of line less any level tip section (usually 6" or so). While I am no student of silk lines, I do not recall ever reading anything about a weight standard in regards to a certain length of line. It seemed their design was based upon diameters, thus there was a bit more alchemy involved in choosing the best line for a particular rod. One needed to consider the distances regularly required in their fishing. Of course the casting style comes into play, as cane in those earlier times was not being fished by so many of us raised on the punch it power casting idea of graphite, which can certainly stress a fine rod.

As anglers, we don't go around casting thirty measured feet of line, of course, we cast the line required for the particular situation. Small stream fishers may routinely cast twenty or so feet of fly line plus their leader, while those of us angling larger rivers may be casting forty to sixty feet of line plus our leaders.

In regard to the initial loading of the rod at pickup, I would expect a silk line to have much more drag from the surface tension, at least since the plastic line makers rail so much about their "slickness", so I might understand where a lighter silk line would load a given rod better when a cast is initiated. Again, I have never fished one. Hardy would seem to be the folks worth of talking to as you are concerned with their rods and their reels.

Just my thoughts, as I think you have raised an interesting query. Have you searched the topic on this forum? I would bet it has been fully discussed previously.
...a wink of gold like the glint of sunlight on polished cane...

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SalmoNewf
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Re: Silk line weight

#4

Post by SalmoNewf »

I can’t contribute much to this but I have a Hardy Marvel rod and tried it with both silk and plastic 4 wt lines when I received it. After borrowing a variety of lines from friends to try I settled on a 444 DT3-F for smaller streams and an old silk line of unknown origin and size gifted me for (slightly) bigger waters. It is quite thin and I’d have no trouble believing it to be an IEI.

fefferje
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Re: Silk line weight

#5

Post by fefferje »

Paladins, I am not familiar with the old letter designation for line weights. I do have some experience with silk lines having 1 designated as a 3 weight, one which falls between a 2 and 3 weight , two 4 weights, a 5 weight, a 6 weight, one I would call closer to a 7 weight and one eight weight. Let me say first that in general the thinner diameter of the silk lines makes for a lighter or more delicate presentation. At one point I weighed the first 30 feet of my lines in grams then translated those measurements into grains. I did this to see where the lines fell on the spectrum of line weight compared to the designation of the line. I found for example that some 4 weight silk lines were a heavier 4 weight than others. I suspect that the making of a taper in a specific line designation cannot be created in an exact weight of grains each time but that it will fall within a range of grains sometimes a heavier 4, sometimes a lighter 4. In general silk lines of a particular line load the rod more lightly than plastic lines in my experience but again that depends on the particular 4 weight line you have and the manufacturer of the silk line. For this reason I would get the silk line that fits the rod designation you have and try it out. I prefer a line which feels on the light side when casting close in because that line will get progressively heavier as you cast more line. The way a silk line lands on water is a lighter landing. I don’t feel silk lines are any more difficult to pick up from the water than a plastic line, and in general I like how they pick up more than.a plastic line. I have only 2 experiences with silk line manufacturers: Zen and Phoenix. Of the two I prefer the Phoenix lines because they feel more balanced and lighter. The Zen lines are very nicely finished but for my money I prefer the way the Phoenix lines cast. I hope I have helped in some way. Cheers, Jed
Fefferfly

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BigTJ
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Re: Silk line weight

#6

Post by BigTJ »

I believe that between the higher density of a silk line and less wind resistance of the smaller diameter they generate more speed and loads the rod more efficiently. So frequently a rod will load nicely with one line weight lighter with silk than plastic. I now only fish with silk lines because of their better handling and casting characteristics. Most modern silk lines seem to be spot on with AFTMA standards (out of the 25 or so I’ve checked) but not all. I have a Cadno rated for a 4 that is a 3.5, for example. Phoenix is particularly good at accurately matching AFTMA standards in my experience. Which isn’t a surprise given the quality of their products. Good luck.

John

Palakona123
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Re: Silk line weight

#7

Post by Palakona123 »

Thanks for replies. I have looked a bit further into the subject, and I think there is several reasons for these oddly light lines as suggested, but mostly I think Hardy just recommended relatively light lines, and cane and silk seems to have some advatages over carbon and plastic.

Still the IEI seems oddly light, 15,9 grams (245 grains) over 35 yards, or 4,5 grams after the AFTM scale. The front taper is quite long, so it should probably be deducted from the length, but still it’s barely a 2wt. These lines would be used on short rods for stream fishing, so if just fishing with the front taper, it’s more like a 1 wt. The 3 wt 444 weights 6,5 grams, and has a much shorter front taper. The only rod I think might suit for the IEI might be the 8’ and 8’6’’ Fairchild, which are very light, but not that short.
Hardy produced a «DT WF» (A short WF taper at both sides) for stream fishing besides their ordinary WF and DT lines, so that might have been designed to address this issue.

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Jaimec
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Re: Silk line weight

#8

Post by Jaimec »

fefferje wrote:
02/05/23 17:53
Paladins, I am not familiar with the old letter designation for line weights. I do have some experience with silk lines having 1 designated as a 3 weight, one which falls between a 2 and 3 weight , two 4 weights, a 5 weight, a 6 weight, one I would call closer to a 7 weight and one eight weight. Let me say first that in general the thinner diameter of the silk lines makes for a lighter or more delicate presentation. At one point I weighed the first 30 feet of my lines in grams then translated those measurements into grains. I did this to see where the lines fell on the spectrum of line weight compared to the designation of the line. I found for example that some 4 weight silk lines were a heavier 4 weight than others. I suspect that the making of a taper in a specific line designation cannot be created in an exact weight of grains each time but that it will fall within a range of grains sometimes a heavier 4, sometimes a lighter 4. In general silk lines of a particular line load the rod more lightly than plastic lines in my experience but again that depends on the particular 4 weight line you have and the manufacturer of the silk line. For this reason I would get the silk line that fits the rod designation you have and try it out. I prefer a line which feels on the light side when casting close in because that line will get progressively heavier as you cast more line. The way a silk line lands on water is a lighter landing. I don’t feel silk lines are any more difficult to pick up from the water than a plastic line, and in general I like how they pick up more than.a plastic line. I have only 2 experiences with silk line manufacturers: Zen and Phoenix. Of the two I prefer the Phoenix lines because they feel more balanced and lighter. The Zen lines are very nicely finished but for my money I prefer the way the Phoenix lines cast. I hope I have helped in some way. Cheers, Jed
Hey Jed! I have to say quite a bit has changed since I made your line. I was having some issues for a bit with the overall finish. Turned out one of the varnish components had been changed by the mfr and I didn't know it. I changed out that component, and haven't had a problem since. The lines are much more supple.

Cheers,
Jaime
"Custom Made Silk Fly Lines, Tenkara and Furled Leaders, Hand Made in the USA"

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