Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

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monte12
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Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#1

Post by monte12 »

Working on my first rod. Perfectionist from the Mauer book. Just started rough tapering after heat treatment. So far got this strip oversized by .04. Along the taper my mic’ed measurements and 60 degree angle are within .002 of target. Happy with that so far. My only issue is along all the nodes only on one side of them on the enamel side there is a little gap. It doesn’t look great. How will this affect the rod further down the road? I think it’s because I haven’t dressed the nodes correctly but I’m new and am self taught so I’m not sure what right or wrong looks like. Could someone give me insight on these gaps and potential fixes? Did I over file nodes? Underfile? Any insight would be appreciated.
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Don Andersen
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#2

Post by Don Andersen »

Hi,
The strips have to be straight in all three sides. it appears like the enamel side is not straight and has to be pushed a little towards the enamel side.
I use a devise to check the straightness. A backlighted straight edge.

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All three sides should be checked to make sure they are straight before proceeding to final.
Further, after straightening, measure the side to side to make sure the apex of the triangle to directly over center.

Don

monte12
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#3

Post by monte12 »

I appreciate the feedback. Do you have a technique to push the enamel side back? I can’t put it back on the vice or I’ll crush the apex… is there a tool the I can make or buy? Thanks!

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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#4

Post by Canewrap »

Those dips are a common problem with some culms. They need to be addressed when the strips are still quite a bit oversize. Ideally, before you rough, while still in their rectangular shape you look at the profile and will see where the strip dips after the node on the enamel side. Heating and pressing can get rid of it at this point. Once triangulated, you need something like these. Mike Mansos sells these through the classifieds here, but if you have a router with a 60 Degree bit you could make one as well. They go in a vice and support the strip for pressing after reheating. But, if you are close to final on these you only have one option and that is to bind tightly and deal with the inevitable glue lines. I've made this mistake a few times by not remembering to check the flatness, the way Don describes.
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#5

Post by BigPine »

Hello there and welcome. Yes I've been there too, fighting the same issue. If this spline is indeed .040" oversize, you could try sanding the sides of the nodal area with the spline in the forms. The steel forms are a precise holder for the strip, and helps keep the sanding accurate. I use a wood block with sandpaper glued to it with spray adhesive. Watch your angles and sand with the grain. This technique may not be the answer for this spline, but it may come in handy elsewhere. Don't worry, there's usually the option of making another spline. And most of all enjoy the journey!

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Aristotle
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#6

Post by Aristotle »

Hello.

The center of the enamel side must be flat from the top to the bottom of the strip. When dressing nodes, it may be helpful to check them against a straight piece of metal, such as a metal ruler. The enamel side will have a slight radius, which is fine. The point is for both sides of the strip to have consistent and continual contact with the forms the entire length of the strip.

It is unclear whether the nodes were under- or over-dressed. At this juncture, you could heat and press or you could lightly file or sand.

However, in your message you state that at the nodes, “only on one side of them,” you have this gap. So, do you mean that when you flip the strip to plane the other side, there is no gap? I’d also make sure you have achieved your 60 degree angle.

Nice job on your first rod!
Michael D. Day
www.Fly-By-Day.com

monte12
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#7

Post by monte12 »

Appreciate all the responses. I think I’m going to try to press them out. Worst case make a new strip. All my other strips are only beveled with no taper. Still oversized by .060 or .070 at the smallest. So far loving the build. Lot of challenges I didn’t expect. Having a blast learning though.

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Tom Smithwick
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#8

Post by Tom Smithwick »

You can get that dip out in a heartbeat if you own an alcohol lamp.
https://www.bamboorodmaking.com/Tutoria ... eNode.html
Basically it's a two step process. Heat the underside of the strip at the apex of the dip while applying bending pressure so you can feel when it bends straight. Let it cool. The dip will then be gone, but there will be a downward angle where the fibers enter the node. Heat the underside of that and bend the strip upward until the angle is gone. I use the alcohol lamp because you can concentrate the heat in a small area, and not bend where you don't want to you. Obviously, don't overdo it and incinerate the strip. Practice on a couple scrap pieces, and you will see how easy this is.

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BGreer
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#9

Post by BGreer »

Monte,

There's a lot of good information here. That enamel side along the node needs to be flatter. That is a glue line waiting to happen.

Looking at your pictures, I would agree with pressing them out. I would use a Waara node press/jig for this. The Monsos V-blocks are great, but I think you would be better served by pressing the node in a smaller area. The Waara press is perfect for that. You can make one easily and inexpensively.

Here's a discussion on them, along with some pictures:
viewtopic.php?t=107540

You can cut or grind a 60 degree groove in the head of the bolt in the Waara press to get a better bite on the strip and to avoid crushing the apex opposite of the enamel.

You can find the toggle clamps at any big box hardware store:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/POWERTEC-30 ... /207181686

It's just another way to skin a cat. Good luck.

Brian

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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#10

Post by Maclovio »

Let me just add that that is a wonderful taper, you're going to love that rod. I don't think that you have enough meat on the strip at this point to press them out. It needs to be addressed when splitting.

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Don Andersen
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#11

Post by Don Andersen »

Hi,
It is not unusual for this type of issue to occur between straightening prior to rough planing and now. As you heat the bamboo for straightening the outer fibres will hold the inner ones straight till you remove them in the rough plane.
For this reason I straighten as necessary any time the problem occurs. I may straighten upwards of 3 or more times before final.
Don't worry about crushing the apex. You are going to reduce it anyway.
There are a number of methods to restraighten the strip.
Arrow "straghteners" is one option. I've used them and found it difficult to cold the strip where I wanted so I made up this simple device. I can pressure exactly where I wish.
Image
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mjm6
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#12

Post by mjm6 »

I think I understand what the problem is here based on the comments from knowledgeable people, but doesn't this effectively mean this strip is now too small to meet the design requirements at these locations?

Basically, unless the OP were planning on a different rod that could employ strips with smaller dimensions, it seems there is no recoverable approach for this if OP is already pretty close to the planing dimensions for the strips. So, there's no chance to "restraighten" because the strips are effectively straight but has had a bit too much bamboo taken out in those short gap locations.

It seems to me, this would have had to have been caught at rough planing or at least a little earlier and before the strip was at the final dimensions (the OP states they are .060 over, but I'm guessing that's not enough to recover the gaps in the photo). One person has mentioned this, but the rest haven't really said anything about this and I'm wondering if the OP shouldn't cut their losses on this strip and try again.

I'm getting so close to starting on my own first rod and so I feel these discussions are really beneficial for someone like me, so thanks for having them.

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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#13

Post by DonT »

Yeah, all of us have been there… FWIW I get the nodes pretty flat right after splitting, and if any of them are still pretty lumpy durings straightening I work them further since I want the strips pretty flat and straight to run through my beveler. I tend to rough plane to 40 thousandths over then heat treat. After heat treating I scrape the enamel then sand the enamel side lightly with 100 grit sandpaper using my closed up forms to hold the strips. This is the time to really get the nodes flat and the entire strip as even on the enamel side as possible. I use a sanding block with 100 grit and sometimes a good wood file for this. Using a straight edge like the guys have suggested is great but I run my fingers over the nodes to feel if there are high spots or dips. Anyway, good luck, you’ve gotten a lot of good advice.
Last edited by DonT on 12/18/24 14:30, edited 1 time in total.
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monte12
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#14

Post by monte12 »

BGreer wrote:
12/18/24 10:16
Monte,

There's a lot of good information here. That enamel side along the node needs to be flatter. That is a glue line waiting to happen.

Looking at your pictures, I would agree with pressing them out. I would use a Waara node press/jig for this. The Monsos V-blocks are great, but I think you would be better served by pressing the node in a smaller area. The Waara press is perfect for that. You can make one easily and inexpensively.

Here's a discussion on them, along with some pictures:
viewtopic.php?t=107540

You can cut or grind a 60 degree groove in the head of the bolt in the Waara press to get a better bite on the strip and to avoid crushing the apex opposite of the enamel.

You can find the toggle clamps at any big box hardware store:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/POWERTEC-30 ... /207181686

It's just another way to skin a cat. Good luck.

Brian
I’m over 2 hours away from a big box store so I had to improvise. No where in town had a 60 degree router but either so I had to kind of marry the two ideas together. Luckily I use almost exclusively hand tools in my woodshop so I had a bunch of saw files around and they happen to be 60 degrees. So I cut a 60 groove in the head of the bolt as suggested. Seems to protect the apex reasonably well. Might order one of those clamps if this doesn’t work out. But so far this is working better for me than heating with etoh lamp and using hands. Pretty early in testing but I’m hopeful this will take out the bulk of the offending unevenness.
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monte12
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#15

Post by monte12 »

Thanks for all the replies. Tons of good stuff in here. Definitely helpful.

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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#16

Post by 3creeks »

Monte, this will be a distant memory for you some day as you catch fish on a rod that you built yourself. My flattening happens in stages. What's flat enough before roughing reveals itself before I start tapering. Then I put the strips enamel side up in my steel forms and check for flatness with a machinist square on the node. If it rocks at all I take care of it. If I can see any light through the straightedge, same thing. Your hand tool skills/foundation will serve you well indeed.

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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#17

Post by LeeO »

I am guessing that if you use the strip it will turn out just fine. It is your first rod. Better to get one completed than drive yourself crazy with minor issues
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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#18

Post by BGreer »

monte12 wrote:
12/18/24 18:32
I’m over 2 hours away from a big box store so I had to improvise. No where in town had a 60 degree router but either so I had to kind of marry the two ideas together. Luckily I use almost exclusively hand tools in my woodshop so I had a bunch of saw files around and they happen to be 60 degrees. So I cut a 60 groove in the head of the bolt as suggested. Seems to protect the apex reasonably well. Might order one of those clamps if this doesn’t work out. But so far this is working better for me than heating with etoh lamp and using hands. Pretty early in testing but I’m hopeful this will take out the bulk of the offending unevenness.
Image

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Image
That looks like a good solution to me. Another way to skin that cat.

Using this sort of method to press up the nodes, you may get some high spots that will need to be addressed.
Just sand those spots down to get a flat strip along the node.

It looks like you've got all of this under control. Well done.

Brian

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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#19

Post by oddsnrods »

One tip I find useful is to use the end of the forms to safely hold the strip while specific care is required to focus light pressure on and around nodes, while straightening. In the picture below, the right side end of the strip can be gently bent in the direction desired.
From early experience, I have come to appreciate that nodes may be 'ruptured' while attempting to straighten them. This damage may not show up until the rod is completed, when it becomes evident as the section remains slightly bent while fishing, which cannot be corrected.
Personally, while I use a small bench vice to squeeze the sides of the nodes prior to rough planing, I then use no more than careful hand pressure to straighten a strip, including the node area, seeing no need for a mechanical press.

Malcolm


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Last edited by oddsnrods on 12/19/24 14:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rough tapering issue. (Gaps at nodes on enamel side)

#20

Post by mduval »

[quote=
Seems to protect the apex reasonably well.
[/quote]

Put a shallow saw kerf at the bottom of your groove, or if you have a thin jewellery file, file a kerf. Your apex will be fully protected.

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