Casting DTs vs WFs

laxdad · Post by **laxdad** » 08/15/08 02:43

Gentlemen,
Please bear with me. I have a question concerning the properties of DT and WF lines and the physics of casting each. I understand that relative line weights are similar for the first 30'-40' and I understand, (I think) the principle of increasing rod stresses as line length increases and running line vs taper, etc.. However, my question is directly related to the casting properties of each. From my experience with 60 years of casting fly lines, I can, depending on wind, cast a DT farther and with more accuracy than a WF. I believe that this is due to my theory that once past the initial 30' - 40' taper of the WF your throwing the weight of the taper, which in my mind, becomes more akin to throwing a fixed weight like a lure with the resultant necessity to "shoot" various lengths of line to achieve distance. On the other hand, a the weight of DT taper remains closer to the tip during the stroke and the weight of the belly provides momentum (?) for a longer period of time as it unrolls during the casting stroke resulting, again from my experience, in better distance and a nice rolling over of the line. As my engineering brother says to me, "what the hell do you now, you were just a salesman" and he's probably right. OK, what am I missing, just remember, you're not getting a virgin....

billems · Post by **billems** » 08/15/08 04:38

I don't have any answers. I've been told by tackle reps and shop owners that there is no difference in the front 30 ft of a flyline, whether it's DT or WF. All I know is that I like the way a DT casts in every way. And I do turn my line around each season, which gives me longer wear.

Zenkoanhead · Post by **Zenkoanhead** » 08/15/08 04:59

My experience with the Rio Windcutter confirms the scenario you describe. With its compound design, the extra weight at the tip of the rod seems to yield a more uniform loading, with the decreasing taper towards the leader adding speed to the unrolling necessary at the end of the cast. Long taper WFs also confirm the physics. BUT, some rods definitely do better with the weight out front/lure configuration, clearly making use of the rear taper of the WF head. The Rio Pocketwater lines, Headstart, and other lines with short heads confirm this. In fact, I often create my own speciality line by cutting out a section of the belly of a WF line 2 weights over the rod weight, but keeping both front and rear tapers. The 24 foot head casts and loads beautifully on many rods. So the addage of DT for casting, WF for shooting is sometimes true, but there are rods that will cast better with a WF line, irrespective of the shoot. My secret is to try out a dozen different lines to find a good match. Don

laxdad · Post by **laxdad** » 08/15/08 07:10

Don, Thanks for your confirmation and info re some of the new, (to me) lines on the market. I've been busy for the last 20 years raising a second family so all of my equipment, including lines and leaders, (%$#&^) are 20 - 25 years old. That includes a number of 444s WFs at I've been using this year. The profanity was due to the number of good fish that I broke off while fishing the Delaware area this year. It took me awhile to conclude that the old leaders plus the graphite rods that I built in 1982 and had never fished along with an over zealous strike was killing my hooked to landed ratio. Anyway, before I reinvested in new DT lines I was looking for some confirmation that I was "remembering" correctly. Oh, by the way, I put away the graphites and have gone back to the bamboo, which also incudes a new Mike Brooks blank that I just finished up......Geo

Zenkoanhead · Post by **Zenkoanhead** » 08/15/08 07:29

Do try the Windcutter lines and perhaps a long belly WF along with your new 444s. if you haven't already, switch over to thread furled leaders. You can get some from John Quigley. I like an orange butt with white tip for better visibility. Grease them up with a little Mucilin. Don

laxdad · Post by **laxdad** » 08/15/08 07:41

Don,
Thanks. My brother and I will be in the Catskills in September so I'll be ordering some new stuff today.....Geo

senior · Post by **senior** » 08/16/08 08:59

With this economy going as it is maybe we should suggest to the manufacturers : change the double taper into a single taper and reduce its overall length.This would get us double taper users ,, to buy weight forward lines only when we really had to cast far.This could spur manufacturing / job market / investing etc. If this strategy did not work,they could recycle the other half of the line, they (d.t.) did not use, back into oil , get a tax incentive and reduce the need for offshore drilling.

creakycane · Post by **creakycane** » 08/16/08 10:31

I like the way a DT casts too, and in most trout fishing siutations, don't care for the feeling of casting the head of a WF line like a shooting head attached to a running line. It is difficult to mend WF lines with any line out since light line is tryng to move heavier line.. But in salt water situations, Bass bugging or for fishing streamers for stripers in large rivers, the WF will cast farther and makes more sense if mending is not an issue (in F, Inter,, F/S or full sink).

BTW, the momentum argument rings true out to intermediate distances (which is what makes DT's so satifying out until their max istance), where wind resistance takes over and the distance a DT can be cast peters out. The WF/shooting head keeps going since it is the KE of the head that drives the cast, not the momentum transfer down the line.

Marshall8 · Post by **Marshall8** » 08/16/08 12:27

I get the feeling sometimes in discussions like these that we are talking about some kind of static cast with no variation and the variable is the rod or line. In learning to do different things in the cast you can produce a super tight 6" loop or a 6' loop with either line on a variety of rod actions at short to average distances. I think the WF design at longer distances works especially better with the softer action rods. If the rod is fast you can get away with DT going long but the ability to put the right stroke into your rod with whichever line is PRICELESS. A DT4 becomes a 7/8wt at a much shorter distance than you can imagine.

Marshall

caddisman3 · Post by **caddisman3** » 08/16/08 15:06

Yea Yea Marshall what your really saying is if you just practice casting everyday and go fishing more than any man deserves then you to could cast a 6pc Eagle Claw Trailmaster fly/spin combo and vintage Shakespere ivory level 5wt line with lovely loops and accurate pin point presentations.A flyfisher who has put many hours into casting/fishing can without exeption make almost any rod/reel/line combo cast nice tight loops and more importantly cast accuretly enough to catch rising fish in normal fishing distances[freshwater trout fishing that is]spend more money on casting lessons/books/videos and PRACTICE!
Karl

Marshall8 · Post by **Marshall8** » 08/16/08 15:16

caddisman3 wrote:spend more money on casting lessons/books/videos and PRACTICE!
Karl

I agree! This produces more than all the other variables combined.

M

WatercolorMan · Post by **WatercolorMan** » 08/16/08 15:42

Laxdad, Welcome

Marshall you made a good point about the weight of a DT line going up fast.

I have a S.A. XPS DT-5-F that I cut in half when I got it to go on a few small reels. This line cut is 40 feet long and weighs 184.8 grains or a 7.5 WT line.
I notice with a DT line that is 80 or 90 feet long if you make say a 65 foot cast you are into the taper from the other end of the DT line. I think that is why the WF lines work best with the big rods on big water and the DT go so well with the smaller rods fishing close.

I put a WF6f on the scale and with 30 feet on the scale it was 154 grains (5.5wt) and at 40 feet 177.8 grains (6.75wt)

WatercolorMan · Post by **WatercolorMan** » 08/16/08 21:37

Hey Marshall

Sounds like Karl has your #

laxdad · Post by **laxdad** » 08/17/08 04:40

Thanks to all for the welcome and the information. However, you guys are well out of my league re the new technology, particularly in fly lines. The 444s that I have are all between 25 and 30 years old and that's what I've been using this year on my reentry into the sport using, pardon me, the graphites that I built in '82. Many of the companies of today didn't even exist back then, e.g. Rio so I've a lot of learning to do. I still have 2 Leanords that I never put on the water, I "believe" a 39 that I picked up at a TU auction in '86 and what is, I "believe" to be a pre-fire 50 DF that was my wifes wedding gift to me in '84. I've been intending to get input from this forums contributors but I just can't figure out how to get pics from photobucket into my posts. (and I've been in the computer industry from '62-'96!!) Just gettin old I guess...

Back to the subject, I guess I'll have to really start doing some research on the accessories, lines leaders, tippets, etc.. I just sold a Hardy and a Battenkill to finance myself back unto the playground so I feel good to go. At 73 I have two more to get through college, ( 17 year old son and 12 year old daughter) so discretionary income doesn't exist. Only trades and sales make it happen. Laxdad is more than a handle, it's a way of life...George S

creakycane · Post by **creakycane** » 08/17/08 05:19

George - sounds like with a few 444's DT's and a couple of Leonards and the odd graphite , you have all you need to get back into fishing full bore. I wouldn't worrry about WF's at all unless you get into salt or really large river fishing where you can'r reach with your present setups. Some tweaks in the industry and tackle in recent years, but nothing we can't do without to still catch fish and have fun!!!!!!!!!!

laxdad · Post by **laxdad** » 08/17/08 07:02

creakycane,
I really do have all that I need to get back into it , "full bore" and I intend to. I have my doubts about the graphite though. Neither my brother nor I ahve ever been heavy handed in hooking or fighting heavy fish but we've never had as many breakoffs as this, "my year of the graphite". My rods have include everything from True Temper tubular steel, glass, bamboo and composites but I've never had the problems that I had this year. In fact on one occassion I ran into Tom Moran and his wife on the Beaverkill, (from NY not London) and he gave me one of his flys called, "big un" to try on a riser we were both watching. I put it over him, the bottom exploded, I lifted the rod tip and nothing. He broke me off clean and I didn't feel a thing. Tom did not seem happy... he also has a book coming out this September featuring the 6 or 8 flies you that you only need, or something like that. Again I'm off topic but thanks for your encouragement. Can't wait for Sep. when I break in my Mike Brooks, "McKenzie" blank on the West Branch......George S

creakycane · Post by **creakycane** » 08/17/08 10:49

Hey George - You aren't using old tippet material, are you? That has gotten better (and old stuff does weaken)! Maxima 4x - 8x for the Beaverkill.
Some folks put a peice of rubber band between the line and leader to add some give to avoid breakoffs. A few of the leader manufacturers make it.

laxdad · Post by **laxdad** » 08/17/08 12:52

creakycane,

New leaders. Not Maxima though. I could never get Maxima to roll over correctly when I was tying my own leaders. If it was just me I'd say it was old age or I forgot how. But my brother has stayed with it and although he won't admit it, he breaks 'em off too. I never heard of the rubber band. although we used to use 'em off the planer boards fishing for kings on Lake Ontario. Have to look at it but for me the answer is a tip that's soft enough to absorb the shock of a strike and a butt that's capable of aborbing the run. I'll get it back...there's no doubt.....George

Bullwinkle · Post by **Bullwinkle** » 08/18/08 05:15

I'm certainly no expert but I put the Cortland Precision Platinum on a Dave Norling 8' for 5wt amd it cast like a dream.

overmywaders · Post by **overmywaders** » 08/18/08 05:37

Laxdad,

I don't actually have the casting DT's - it just looks that way. I do get all glassy-eyed, drool from the corner of my mouth, and shake uncontrollably when casting to a rise. Okay, I mutter to myself as well. I can understand that you might confuse my fishing technique with delerium tremens but can any of you honestly say that you don't stick your tongue out of the corner of your mouth to correct a drift?

As for WF's, I assume you mean WTF's. Yes, I sometimes use that casting technique, which for me usually involves fishing out a cast where the tailing loop has created a massive tangle of leader and I hope that the fish will ignore it.