Datus Proper "Perfect Dun"

creakycane · Post by **creakycane** » 01/08/07 03:57

Anyone tie or fish these? Sort of a cross between a Marinaro thorax and a Catskill Dry, with large rooster hackle tip wings. Though not exactly. Tied sparsely, it looks just like a mayfly and cocks just right on the water. It's described in his great book "What the Trout Said". It does twist light leaders a little if the wings are large. I always have some dun colored 12 tied up for difficult fish on Hendrickons/GQ's if a Catskill, Comparadun or spinner doesn't work.

DRYFLYII · Post by **DRYFLYII** » 01/08/07 07:26

How about a picture?

Corcut · Post by **Corcut** » 01/09/07 03:55

Please post a photo if you have it available. Thanks.

nohackle · Post by **nohackle** » 01/09/07 07:14

.
Its essentially a split wing thorax dun. Its Propers easier to tie version of the classic Marinaro thorax which has an interesting and much more difficult than it looks crisscross "X "hackling.

The " perfect dun"starts out as a normal everyday thorax dun except that it has wire ribbing over the abdomen and after the hackle is tied in Proper, rather than just trimming the hackle , he flips the fly over and flattens the hackle tips under the shaft with figure eights of thinly dubbed thread . His idea was that this extra effort gave the fly a more natural appearing thickened thorax and the hackle was cocked slightly above horizontal so it landed and floated more effectively.

"What the trout said" is one of my all time favorites and is definitely worth a look for anyone that carries more than a few flies in your vest .. For me a nohackle or harrop tailwater dun seems to get the job done more consistently and the more I fish flat water the more I appreciate the fact that having a fly land and float perfectly upright is not all that desirable. At the end of the day Datus Proper was a faithful student of marinaro and "The perfect Dun " gets all of Marinaro's triggers.....the prominent upright split wing and leg dimpling all in one nice little package

I would have really enjoyed sharing a stretch of the Ranch /Silver Creek with him. Perhaps some of you folks knew Proper?

bill

creakycane · Post by **creakycane** » 01/09/07 10:12

Met Datus once, corresponded numerous times by letter - discussing all things fly design, code A size 17 Partridge hooks, spinners, Irish Chalkstreams, etc.

I like the perfect dun in larger flies - when you need a 12 or 14 Mayfly for selctive trout feeding on duns "flapping their wings" in flat water.

nohackle · Post by **nohackle** » 01/09/07 11:12

creaky,

I can see that working very well in that circumstance While most of us fish a nohackle as a dun imitation I'm coming to believe that most fish, especially the fussy ones on spring creeks, are looking for "knocked down duns" when that fly works. For me there is no greater thrill in the sport than tossing a tall split wing dun imitation on a downstrean quartering drift to a rise and see a big head come up and slurp it in . Catskills have their charm but the perfect dun and nohackles are magnificent.

now there was a man fussy about his hooks !--

-->

wish I had run into him

creakycane · Post by **creakycane** » 01/09/07 11:19

Yes, wish I had kept in touch with him more.....

I have learned more in that book than probably any other fly fishing book. Probably IF I owned it along with Art Lee's 1st book I wouldn't have needed the other 100's around the house!

His book on Portugal I remember as being a great read and has some fishing in it too.

upstatetrout · Post by **upstatetrout** » 01/09/07 15:15

What the trout said is an extrordinary fly tying book.My copy was a present to one of my friends Catskill Bill Kelley
by Datus when he visited the catskills. His signature in the
front cover of the book I used as the backround for the picture of a perfect dun. The fly has split tails and exagerated wings.
and prominent thorax.AS mentioned by a previous poster this can cause leader twist. I use a similar pattern for sulphurs in size 18 but do not split the wings.the hackling method, sparse dubbed body and prominent wing work well for me.I find this pattern very useful after the hatch has been on for a week or so and the fish have keyed in.This pattern helps on those fussy risers.It has especially been useful on the West Branch of the Deleware when other anglers are lamenting that only emergers will work ,but as I watch I keep seeing wings going down.

Tom

nohackle · Post by **nohackle** » 01/10/07 11:16

thanks Tom........another interesting dun design along the same lines as "The Perfect dun" originated by a Chicago area tier ( his name escapes me now) incorporates a "wish I had thought of that" way of also creating a thickened thorax and natural imprint. It also starts as a classic thorax dun but he ties in a goose biot under the shank at first pointing toward the tail but then brings it up under the wing and ties off behind the eye thus splaying the hackle tips up to horizontal. The fish eye view of this fly is really quite close to the natural. I've got some tied at home I could post pictures of. He is a well known tier that I know makes it to all of the national shows......sorry I've forgotten his name.

upstatetrout · Post by **upstatetrout** » 01/10/07 16:20

Bill

Please post when you have the time. As I mentioned before I love looking at flies, And contemplating on why
they work.This certainly sounds like an interesting idea.

Tom

nohackle · Post by **nohackle** » 01/12/07 08:45

Tom,

here's a pic of that dun pattern......I'm sorry but the tiers name still eludes me. Like I said, heck of an idea and I think Datus would be happy with the outcome

the pic below shows the underside of the fly with the biot pulled toward the eye splaying the hackle

bill

upstatetrout · Post by **upstatetrout** » 01/12/07 10:25

That is a great looking fly. The body is a very good idea and I also like your use of hen hackle for the wing.Your technique
also shows you have much experience.

Tom

WiFlyFisher · Post by **WiFlyFisher** » 01/27/18 19:32

I just finished reading "What The Trout Said" by Datus Proper. Great book and really makes you think of fly design and its application.

Anyway, instead of starting a new thread I thought I would add on to this old thread. Does anyone here tie the "Perfect Dun"? If so, can you post a close up photo?

Thanks!

MikeL · Post by **MikeL** » 01/27/18 21:35

What the Trout Said is one of my all time favorites. Fly design simple, realistic. One point in the book that has stuck with me is the 4 most important factors in their order: behavior, size, shape and color.

tonkin67 · Post by **tonkin67** » 01/27/18 21:47

One of my favorites also. Anyone who fishes for trout should read his book

WiFlyFisher · Post by **WiFlyFisher** » 01/28/18 07:34

Holy Buckets, this ain't easy to tie!

I decided to make a Hendrickson pattern on a Mustad 94840, size #14. White Veevus thread, size #16, since I do not have white silk.

Setting the hackle wing tips was fairly easy. Then added a drop of super glue at the base of the wing.

Adding the dubbing and hackle again not difficult.

From there it went downhill fast for me. With the small hook size my fingers can't easily get in to flatten the hackle. Plus, my Whiting Medium Dun hackle is super stiff and bounces right back. So I tried the flat side of my scissors which help some but not much. Criss-crossing the thread several times to try to flatten the hackle underneath the hook. It ain't easy, at least for me.

Finally, I got the hackle to stay flat and I immediately dabbed some super glue underneath on the criss-cross thread.

Datus Proper does say in his book (pg. 194) "More difficult to tie than standard designs, some care must be taken to get the wings and hackle set right"

I will have to keep playing with this.

Update:

Trying again this time using Pearsall's Gossamer Silk thread in a gold color.

The silk thread is a little thicker than the Veevus thread and seems to work better. I also followed Datus's exact tying instructions for the hackle... 1 wrap in front of the hackle wing, then 2 wraps behind the hackle wing and then 1 more wrap in from of the wing. Less wraps flattened better but still isn't easy.

If you do it enough you start to get the hang of it. After criss-crossing the dubbing underneath I then used a dubbing needle to adjust the dubbing and the hackle underneath before dabbing a little super glue. I also went to a double hackle wing on both sides.

upstate · Post by **upstate** » 01/28/18 08:14

The trick is in the hackling tequnique for me.I tie the hackle on in front of the wing
Take one turn back behind the far wing add another turn then one turn forward on the near wing and then one or two wraps and tie off.This splays the hackle on the bottom of the fly making it easier to flatten

Tom

aged_sage · Post by **aged_sage** » 01/28/18 09:24

Bill...

Your "Image" link to show the bottom of the fly does not work for me. Anyone else have this problem?

WiFlyFisher · Post by **WiFlyFisher** » 01/28/18 09:58

aged_sage wrote:Bill...

Your "Image" link to show the bottom of the fly does not work for me. Anyone else have this problem?

aged_sage, Bill's post was from January 2007.

You have to install an PhotoBucket add-on for FireFox or Chome to view the older Photobucket images.

See... viewtopic.php?f=77&t=110320

thegubster · Post by **thegubster** » 01/28/18 12:26

aged_sage wrote:Bill...

Your "Image" link to show the bottom of the fly does not work for me. Anyone else have this problem?

Nope, works for me.

Always fun to re-read an old thread and makes me enthused all over again. I need that now and then, just not on this particular fly. As is obvious, "nohackle" knows his way around a vise!

The Classic Fly Rod Forum