A Touradif rod

[Blue Waters]

So, how is a Touradif rod defined?

I, maybe mistakenly, was under the impression it was a valise or pack rod.

Hiram and Loman Hawes supposedly built these labelled "Touradif" rods for A&F?

So, set me straight, gentlemen of the cane!

Also how is the word itself defined?

[cwfly]

The "Touradif" name likely derives from the name of a river in Quebec. The model was available through A&F for a large number of years and came in a very large number of models - salmon, trout, tournament, bait, tourist, valise. The model was also liekly made by a number of makers throughout its existence.
Hit the search button and enter Touradif and you will find some previous discussions.

[Blue Waters]

Thank you Charlie.

Seems as if I was mistaken in my valise assumption.

Interesting to know how the name derived!

[Threadhead]

Any idea what other builders besides Hawes made the Touradif?

[canesterdf]

I recently purchased a Touradif fly rod. the second in my collection, and I am quite sure it was made by Edwards and likely in Brewer ,Maine. IT is nine feet 3/2 16 & 10 Ferrules and tips that are .056 over varnish.= 3 1/2 64ths I will post a pic or two later when time allows. lots of the metalwork is rolled and soldered tube. and it has the distinctive butterfly style slide band that was commonly used by EW on early rods. It is an exciting find to me. Best,Paul

[2dabacking]

Paul, I would love to see that rod. It is my opinion that Payne and later Edwards supplied A&F with the Touradif rods. I have not been able to find any evidence that Touradifs were made by any other makers. Of course, the attribution to Payne and Edwards is based significantly on seeing rods that point to them and following the tracks from catalogs and ads. I have been working on this puzzle for a couple of years, so I have a dozen pages of notes on the Touradif rods. Unfortunately, the Touradifs are rather difficult to find, so it appears that they are quite scarce or rarely sold. I will share my findings to date over the next few days. There are still some holes to fill, but I hope that we might be able to fill those here. I am headed out the door at the moment, so I will leave you with the person who appears to be the key link in this story: Mr. Louis S. Darling (1873-1917), a renowned tournamet caster, author, and inventor, who headed up the tackle department at A&F beginning in 1903. One of his favorite fishing rods was an 8' Payne rod. Was it perhaps a Touradif? Not really sure. More later...

[Blue Waters]

Paul, I would love to see that rod. It is my opinion that Payne and later Edwards supplied A&F with the Touradif rods. I have not been able to find any evidence that Touradifs were made by any other makers. Of course, the attribution to Payne and Edwards is based significantly on seeing rods that point to them and following the tracks from catalogs and ads. I have been working on this puzzle for a couple of years, so I have a dozen pages of notes on the Touradif rods. Unfortunately, the Touradifs are rather difficult to find, so it appears that they are quite scarce or rarely sold. I will share my findings to date over the next few days. There are still some holes to fill, but I hope that we might be able to fill those here. I am headed out the door at the moment, so I will leave you with the person who appears to be the key link in this story: Mr. Louis S. Darling (1873-1917), a renowned tournamet caster, author, and inventor, who headed up the tackle department at A&F beginning in 1903. One of his favorite fishing rods was an 8' Payne rod. Was it perhaps a Touradif? Not really sure. More later...

So, Hiram and Loman Hawes never built Touradifs for A&F?

[2dabacking]

Blue Waters,
Apologies, as I did not mean to leave you hangin'. I will continue my puzzle (part facts, part speculation, parts still missing) this evening. I really do not know if Hiram Hawes made any of the Touradif rods. He did make rods under his own label for A&F, but I don't know if he made rods for the trade. It is possible, but there is so little information out there about the Hawes' (later with son, Merritt) operation that it is difficult to state one way or the other with any certainty. Was it a two man shop? Again, I don't know, but if it were, I don't see how they would have been able to supply any rods in addition to their own label without purchasing components elsewhere (which was also possible). All that I can really provide is the information that I have been able to find in old books/periodicals referencing A&F, coupled with known original examples of Touradif rods. I am quite certain that Hiram's older brother, Loman, did not make the Tourdif rods, since he died in 1897. From the Hawes' tombstone:
Loman Hawes: 1849-1897
Hiram Hawes: 1857-1930

[cwfly]

I can only add the following.
In 1910 Hiram Hawes was 50 and his son Merritt was but 8.
I just read the 1910 census, page by page, for the rural town of Canterbury and find no person other than Hiram Hawes employed making fish rods. This does not mean that someone from Chaplin, Brooklyn or other surrounding farming towns might not have worked with Hiram - simply that no one from Canterbury appears to have been so employed.

[Blue Waters]

2dabacking,

Got my Hawes scrambled again.
Good luck with your Touradif quest!

It would be amazing if you could definitvely sort out the Touradif!!

[2dabacking]

Thanks, Charlie, for that information.
Blue Waters, It was a late night for me, but I am working on assembling the information into a presentable order for discussion. I am doubtful of any definitive conclusions for any trade rods, but I would be comfortable with probabilities. In my mind, there is always the possibility that components and blanks were supplied to retailers and assembled in-house. Whatever the actual outcome, it doesn't hurt to attempt the analysis, and I am hopeful that it helps shed even a glimmer of light on the history of "Touradif" rods.

[2dabacking]

I don't know what I was thinking the other day when I decided to tackle this publicly, but I opened the box, so I'll share what I have. I'll take anyone willing to share his thoughts with me on this wild ride. Please feel free to express your opinions openly and freely, as there will be more analyzing and postulating than providing concrete evidence. This will be no easy task, but in attempting to attribute the Touradif rods to a maker (or makers), I have considered the following:
1. Catalog Descriptions, including Photos and Price Comparisons
2. A&F Advertisements
3. A&F Employees and Relationships, including Lou Darling's work
4. Rod Identifications and Component and Taper Comparisons
5. Business Decisions by A&F and Rod Makers

I will start with the Catalog Descriptions and work my way down the list above, but I am happy to go in any direction that the thread takes us. Before I begin, however, I must also make note of a few caveats or limitations:
- Without concrete paper evidence, there will never be complete certainty. I have attempted to track down A&F sales or inventory records (actually any corporate records on A&F Fishing Tackle) and have come up empty. The only A&F records that I could find were related to guns. Those records are currently held by Griffin Howe. It is possible that any existing rod maker ledgers would provide evidence of rod sales to A&F, but I don't have those either.
- Despite having a handful of A&F catalogs from the time period when Touradif rods were sold, I do not have all catalogs. There are still a handful of catalogs which may prove helpful (i.e., pre-1903, 1912, 1915-19, 1927-29).
- Based on the wording in the 1903 A&F catalog, I stated that the Touradif rods were introduced in 1903. I am not 100% certain of this, since I don't have any earlier catalogs.
- I believe, but, again, I am not certain that Lou Darling started working for A&F in 1903. I have not been able to find his exact years of employment with A&F, but I believe it to be circa 1903 to roughly 1914/15/16.
- I have not been able to handle or view more than a dozen Touradif rods, so take that for what it is worth.

While there are many holes, I am most grateful for anyone’s help in filling them.

[Blue Waters]

Thank you for that 2dabacking! A wonderful compilation of Touradif info to a certain point.

As for me, sadly, I can't add an iota of information to yours. Wish I could.
Hopefully others can!

I'm interested in this, as I feel it is an important page in the history of bamboo rods.
And to those who say you can find anything on the internet, please help us out here!

[2dabacking]

1. Catalog Descriptions - The Players

Since these are my earliest two A&F catalogs, I will start with the 1903 and 1904 catalogs (bold italics below are mine). By analyzing the wording in each section, I was trying to figure out the players. To whom was A&F referring in the bold phrases below?

As to the department manager, I am guessing either Darling or Osgood.

Who is of "superior skill acquired by many years of high-class rod making?" At that time, there were but a handful of rod makers who held such a distinction: Leonard, Payne, Thomas, Edwards, Hawes, Divine, Chubb, Varney, and Landman.

1903 A&F Catalog
Tackle Department Introduction
“The manager of this department has a wide knowledge of an angler’s needs, not only from an angler’s standpoint, but from long connection with the trade, hence we feel assured our patrons who entrust orders to us as well as those who favor us with personal inspection will be satisfied we have made a conscientious effort to rise to the occasion.”

“We offer to the anglers of this country an entirely new and superior line of rods adapted to the various kinds of fishing. The best of everything in material and workmanship enters into them. The men who make them as well as the men who sell them are practical anglers: all men of great experience who “chuck the bug” and “cast the minnow” for “love of the game.”

“To the practical knowledge of fishing thus obtained is added the superior skill acquired by many years of high-class rod making; hence, we feel that we are justified in our claim of superiority. Moreover, experts in fly and bait casting, men of national reputation as anglers, have pronounced our rods “beautifully practical.”

1904 A&F Catalog
Tackle Department Introduction
“The manager of this department has a wide knowledge of an angler’s needs, not only from an angler’s standpoint, but from long connection with the trade. Therefore, we feel assured our patrons who entrust orders to us will be satisfied.”

“We offer to the anglers of this country an entirely new and superior line of rods adapted to the various kinds of fishing. The best of everything in material and workmanship enters into them. The men who make them, as well as the men who sell them, are practical anglers: all men of great experience who “chuck the bug” and “cast the minnow” for “love of the game.”

“To the practical knowledge of fishing thus obtained is added the superior skill acquired by many years of high-class rod making; hence, we feel that we are justified in our claim of superiority. Moreover, experts in fly and bait casting, men of national reputation as anglers, have pronounced our rods “Beautifully practical.”

As you can see the wording didn't change much from 1903 to 1904.

[2dabacking]

Continuing with the 1903 and 1904 catalogs...
1. Catalog Descriptions - Touradif Rods

Based on the Touradif rod descriptions alone, it is still nearly impossible to identify a maker. At the same time, however, the only other high-end rods listed in these two A&F catalogs were Kosmic rods. It is interesting to note also that the rod specifications and prices were remarkably similar. In the tables below (sorry, formatting is not the best), the Touradif and Payne rods were sold in pretty much the same configurations. The difference in pricing was $5 in the trout and bait models and $10 in the salmon.

1903 Catalog
The “Touradif” Split Bamboo Rods
“This is the best rod we make. We also believe it is the best any one can make. The greatest care has been given to its production. The most carefully selected bamboo, the best German silver ferrules made by hand, highest grade of cork for the grasps, extra quality and sizes of rings and tip-tops, everything best in rod materials used. We will guarantee every one."

1904 Catalog
The “Touradif” Split Bamboo Rods
"The Touradif, six strip, is the best rod we make, and we believe the best any one can make. In this rod we have combined the best of material and workmanship. Hand made throughout. The best German silver ferrules, highest grade solid cork grasps, metal reel seat, extra fine quality rings and tip top. Large rings on tips, which allow the line to run freely, thus lengthening the cast. The joints are made up many months before mounting, enabling them to thoroughly dry out so that we obtain a resiliency, so essential to long-continued hard work, and without which a light rod is useless."

Kosmic Rods
"We are also agents for the famous Kosmic rods, and carry a full line of the different lengths and weights in fly and bait styles. The rods, as their name indicates, have a world-wide reputation for excellence, and their reputation has been justly earned. The manufacturers warrant every one of them.
We call particular attention to the mechanical principle of the Kosmic ferrule. Every angler knows by personal experience that rods break most frequently at the point where the wood enters the ferrule.
The patent Kosmic ferrule allows the wood to pass a full half inch into the ferrule without any reduction in the size of wood. The best German silver mountings, solid cork grasps and celluloid reel seats are used."

1. Catalog Descriptions - Comparison of Rod Specifications and Prices
1903 Catalog


1904 Catalog

[Carlson Rod]

There is no evidence or mention of "Touradif" rods being manufactured by Hawes in the company records. There are however, several entries for repairs to Touradifs among the scores of rod repairs recorded in the company ledgers.
Carlsonrod

[2dabacking]

CarlsonRod, Many thanks for that information. That is a big help in my mind. It is sincerely appreciated.

Continuing on to the 1907 catalog...
1. Catalog Descriptions - The Players in 1907

1907 A&F Catalog
Tackle Department Introduction
"Beside our own wide experience, we are constantly in close touch with the foremost angling authorities the world over, which brings us a thorough knowledge of the various styles and methods of fishing in all localities. This places us naturally in a position where we are able to help and advise patrons in the selection of the proper tackle and correct equipment for such waters as they may be intending to visit....

We have unequalled facilities for the manufacture and import of special goods, which is a large part of our business, and we will be glad at all times to execute orders for such goods, as we do not catalogue or import specialties from abroad in any quantity and at advertised prices."

As seen above, the 1907 catalog no longer mentions a manager with a "wide knowledge of an angler’s needs... from long connection with the trade." This may indicate that the particular manager from 1903/4 is no longer with A&F. It would also mean that the manager in 1903 was not Darling.

A&F is also in a new location in 1907. In 1904, it was located at 314 and 316 Broadway, NY; in 1907, it is located at 57 Reade Street, NY. Notice that A&F now mentions that it has manufacturing facilities.

1. Catalog Descriptions - 1907 Touradif Rods



Although I am not certain if Louis S. Darling is employed by A&F in 1903, I am certain that he is employed by A&F in 1907 and is the individual referred to as the "rod expert" highlighted above. I also just realized that I stated at the beginning of this thread that Darling was the tackle department manager. I now believe that he was more likely a supervisor in the tackle department - the "rod expert" or rod-making supervisor. (Yes, I am editing as I go.) I will share more details about Darling shortly, but for now, I want to point out that he is with A&F and that Touradif rods are being made under his "immediate supervision." For me, this last phrase raises another question: Are the Touradif rods being made at A&F facilities, or is Darling responsible for handling orders with the maker of Touradif rods?

Darling also published a book in 1907 entitled "Tournament Casting and the Proper Equipment," wherein A&F and A&I rods are advertised. There may be helpful clues within that book, which I will share in section 3.

It is also important to emphasize at this point that Hawes is most likely NOT the individual to whom A&F refers as its "rod expert" and "Tournament winner." Hawes is most likely still with Leonard. [EDIT: I changed a grammatical error. No edits to content.]

I believe that the second paragraph above (first highlighted) is a big clue as to who made the Touradif rods during this time period. There must be some mention of "A&F" or "Touradif" rods in a newspaper, periodical, or book somewhere relating to the tournaments. If such a reference can be found, I believe that we would be able to make a definitive link between a rod maker and the Touradif rods. One of the major keys in this link would be to show that Lou Darling's good friend George La Branche used a Touradif or A&F rod in competition. If it is found in print to be an A&F rod, it would be proof that Payne made the Touradifs during this time. I have not yet been able to work on this search, but I state such because La Branche used a Payne rod for Tournament work. As La Branche noted in the 1951 Payne Catalog, "My oldest Payne is a nine-foot, 4 1/2 ounce rod which I bought in 1905. I used this rod in Association distance tournament casting, before specialized tournament rods and lines came into use. I held distance records with this rod for many years."

[cwfly]

Joel,
A very nice and thorough summary. As I think you know, it is my opinion (as opposed to a fact) that Osgood was with A&F during those early years of 1903, 1904. He died in June, 1907 in Pittsfield, New Hampshire.
I also found an advertisement from October 1906 indicatind the new Reade Street address. I also believe that the breakup between David Abercrombie and Ezra Fitch may have something to do with the shift to Lous Darling, a fishing companion of Fitch.
Dr. Todd would, I believe, know when that split took place.
Charlie

[Carlson Rod]

backing,
There was a Lou. S. Darling on the roster of the Newark Bait & Fly Casting Club of Newark, N.J.
This was about 1908-9, and they give his address as Rockville, Ct., which is east of Hartford and a little north of Vernon. If this is your Mr. Darling, it would have been one heck of a commute in those days. There was no Darling on the membership list for the N.Y. Angler's Club for the same time period.
Carlsonrod

[2dabacking]

Thanks, Charlie. I did recall that you mentioned Osgood as the possible manager, and that is why I listed him above. Apologies, I should have given you the credit for that reference to Osgood, as I have no knowledge of Osgood other than what you have stated in past posts. I also recall seeing a few photos of your Osgood rod and noting the relatively high probability of it being a Payne. Osgood may fit in here somewhere; I just don't know where yet. Osgood's potential relationship with Payne may be the reason that Kosmic rods were offered through A&F in those years, as well as another potential link to the Touradif rods. I think it is more than a coincidence that the Kosmic and Touradif rods were offered in essentially the same configurations, especially the 8'9" configuration, which may, or may not, have been unique to Ed Payne at the time.

It would be interesting to know the reason for the breakup between Abercrombie and Fitch. I'll check with Dr. Todd, but I suspect that he is currently busy with classes. I know that Dr. Todd wrote an article on the history of A&F for ORCA, but I have not taken the time to order that article. I'll see if I can order it this weekend.

Lou Darling and his relationships have been my main focus on trying to assemble this story. He was friends with some talented individuals, including Ezra Fitch, George La Branche, Art Neu, and others. There is an article in one of the Forest and Stream or American Angler magazines detailing a camping trip taken by Darling, Fitch, and another (or others). I'll locate that article and see what it might reveal.

Carlsonrod, Thank you. Yes, that is the same Mr. Darling. Art Neu noted in his eulogy for Darling in a 1917 American Angler that he was an honorary member of the Newark Club. The eulogy below also confirms that Darling did work for A&F, though I am still not certain as to how long. Based on the 1910 (and questionably the 1913) catalog, it appears that Darling is still working for A&F; however, if Darling had already moved to Rockville, CT by 1908/9, according to the eulogy, he would have been employed by E.J. Martin's Sons, located at 51 Kingfisher Street in Rockland, CT (much closer to home than NYC). The company was a manufacturer of fishing lines, including the "Kingfisher" brand lines. I guess he could have continued his employment with A&F for a short while, but, like you said, that would have been one heck of a commute.