A Touradif rod

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Re: A Touradif rod

#101

Post by Threadhead »

I agree...Many Thanks for such value and education. One of the thrills of being a collector is learning the mysteries and histories of great rods that still fish great....and one of the thrills of hanging out on this forum is that many folks offer knowledge, research advise, and inspiration.

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Re: A Touradif rod

#102

Post by 2dabacking »

Thank you, gentlemen, for the kind words and for taking an interest in this work. I spent the last several evenings on the water with my dad, so I have not been able to add much since last week. I will continue posting to this thread tomorrow.
Yours, Joel

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Re: A Touradif rod

#103

Post by 2dabacking »

As mentioned above, the signature wraps on the A&F Touradif rods appear nearly identical to the ones seen on Kosmic rods, so I want to include a couple of photos comparing those features. The photos below display, from top to bottom: Kosmic (USN&T), Kosmic (Whittemore), Touradif (#1109), Touradif (#X566).

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Re: A Touradif rod

#104

Post by 2dabacking »

The 1910 A&F catalog provides us with a few excellent clues with regard to its rodmaker(s); however, there is still no explicit mention of any maker(s). Within the 1910 catalog, Lou Darling appears to have continued to be a major influence within the tackle department. The tackle section starts with a rather detailed introduction written by Lou Darling on fishing and the proper equipment.

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It is also stated that Darling, "an eminent authority on tournament casting," is still the individual responsible for the Touradif Tournament Fly Rods. At this point, Darling would have been with A&F for at least seven years.

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Furthermore, the 1910 catalog provides a nice display of photos alongside the descriptions for Touradif and BIC rods. The photos below match a couple of the rods displayed in this thread. Judging from the photos below, I would suggest that the Touradif and BIC rods with the "numbers only" stampings are the ones described in the 1910 catalog. (I listed the rods in the tables throughout this thread in the order in which I believe the rods were made: no numbers, numbers, numbers with prefix. I was basing that order on photos like these and on the shape of the grips.)

I also find it interesting that the Touradif rods could have been ordered with basically any handle, reel seat, or guides desired (as noted in the last paragraph of the description).

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As the following table displays, 1910 prices for Touradif rods were still unchanged from their introduction in 1903. By 1910, we also see the addition of a 7 1/2' rod to the Touradif fly rod lineup.

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Last edited by 2dabacking on 05/13/12 23:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Touradif rod

#105

Post by 2dabacking »

Now, here is one of the big surprises for me. Below is a clip of the page describing the independent handles available for A&F's Touradif and BIC rods. Can you identify the potential eye-opener?

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Re: A Touradif rod

#106

Post by 2dabacking »

Ok, here is the surprise for me: the photo of the wells detachable grip in the 1910 A&F catalog. The grip pictured in the catalog is very close to a match with a marked 1910 Ed Payne grip (photo below catalog image for comparison). Although there are a few differences in the grips, the similarities are too striking to ignore. Moreoever, the overall similarities among the Touradif, BIC, and Payne rods continue to stand out.

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The other remarkable finding is the possibility that the Payne grip is a pared down version of the grip patented by C.G. Levison and assigned to Ed Payne in 1906. Although the Payne grip above is reversible, it does not allow for the shortening of a rod by removing a grip ferrule and inserting the butt section into the entire length of the grip.

Nonetheless, it may have been Payne's answer to the patented Levison grip. Martin Keane was also aware of this patented grip, as he writes on page 58 of his book: "The collector might keep on the lookout for an early Payne model built with a detachable handle that could be reversed for boat fishing and, at the option of the angler, could have the rodshaft go into the handle for its entire length, thus shortening the rod.... No such rod has appeared in my research, but there's a good possibility that a rod of this or similar character exists, since Payne paid C.G. Levison of New York City in 1906 for such a patent, obviously intending to market rods of this type." This one goes out to the late Mr. Keane. I believe that he would have enjoyed seeing this. A photo of the patent is found below.

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Re: A Touradif rod

#107

Post by 2dabacking »

Before moving on, I also want to point out another feature that appears to connect the A&F rods (at least those without an X) to Payne. The sliding band on the "wells model" grip looks very similar to the BIC rod marked with serial number 762. The band on BIC 762 also seems to match the bands on the 1910 Ed Payne (photo below).

Ed, does the band on the left below look similar to the band on your BIC rod?
Thanks, Joel

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Re: A Touradif rod

#108

Post by reelytrout »

There is a "Touradif" #1381, listed in vintage rods, on the snipers site.

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Re: A Touradif rod

#109

Post by teter »

stoneflyer wrote:Teter,

that is a most impressive line-up. If you had to choose one as the best made (finish, wraps, hardware, cane work etc) which might it be?

I absolutely love the really early rods!

Adam
Adam,
It's a tough call! I love the Hawes rod. But I have to admit I'm mesmerized by Kosmics.

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Re: A Touradif rod

#110

Post by 2dabacking »

Thanks, reelytrout. #1381 pretty much matches the others with similar serial numbers.

At some point in 1910, it is my best guess that the casting and fishing pro known as the "Chief" by his fishing friends left the tackle department with A&F to join the company of E.J. Martin's Sons in his hometown of Rockville, NY. The following year, A&F published its 1911 catalog, which I believe (though unconfirmed) was the first year that A&F listed the names of a couple of rodmakers in its catalog. According to a 1912 supplement catalog (courtesy of Dr. Todd, Jim Garrett, and Skip Brooks) Divine and likely Hawes were included in the A&F lineup at this point. In 1912, A&F had also moved from its 57 Reade Street address to 53-55-57 West 36th Street. 1913 catalog photos of its new building and retail sales department are shown below.

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It is the 1913 catalog that would seem to throw us off a bit with regard to the maker of the Touradif and BIC rods. If I were going solely by 1913 catalog rod cuts shown next to rod descriptions, the answer to "Who made the Touradif rods?" would have been unequivocally "Hawes;" however, the A&F rod cuts for Hawes' rods are misleading. The images shown with the Hawes' rod descriptions are actually stock images of Touradif rods, rather than cuts of actual Hawes' rods. It is my belief that a comparison of the rod cuts from the first Hawes' catalog (which I understand is 1915?) with those in the 1913 A&F catalog would show some clear differences. It is also worth noting that A&F made a point to indicate that the output for Hawes' rods was limited. An image of this notice and the misleading Hawes' rod cut is shown below. (It would make sense, too, that Hawes and/or Divine supplied the Touradif and BIC rods since they were the only makers listed in the 1913 catalog. Therefore, one possibility that I considered when I first started working on this project was that Hawes had an arrangement with Leonard to supply rods to A&F beginning in 1903, but I was unable to find any material evidence to support such a hypothesis.)

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To be continued....

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Re: A Touradif rod

#111

Post by Broken Rod »

Gentlemen,

I rarely visit the wifi in the winter, and when I do I have to go to my local library, where I'm at right now. Here's something interesting about Touradifs #1350 and #X178. They are IDENTICAL to my Transitional "The Isaak Walton," right down to the turned-down and over-wrapped ferrules which Fred Thomas used for short time prior to 1910. He then serrated these ferrules and they became the standard "Thomas ferrule" found on later rods. The die-stamp "The Isaak Walton" was first used in 1894 on the First Model Walton, and the stamp remained unchanged and with Thomas through the Transitional Walton and Second Model Walton, the latter made by him until sometime after 1927 (when it was still in the H.A. Whittemore catalog).

The Gnome also has an identical rod to these 2 Touradifs, another Transitional Walton. He also has a second identical rod marked as "The Vidmar," also made by Thomas but with Calcutta bamboo. Dave also has a Walton similar to these rods. Certainly, Fred Thomas didn't make the majority of the Touradifs, but he made the ones I've mentioned above. The real keys are the sliding band, identical on all those mentioned in this post, and the transitional ferrule which was not serrated but reduced at the end by turning it thinner in a lathe. The waist and trim bands were then moved forward, making the ferrule appear shorter than it was on the First Model Walton. It's the same ferrule but with a new treatment; and it is, by the way, a re-worked Montague ferrule.

I hope you all have a great upcoming year. I'm working on Chapter 7 of a projected 10 chapters of a new book-- "The Isaak Walton; Fred Thomas & His Trade Rods." If anyone has a vintage Montague catalog picturing ferrules and reel seats, I'd love to know about it!

My very best, ;)
A.J.
"He started off in the wood-turning trade."
Profile on Fred Thomas, 1906

Author:
Successful Shark Fishing (1996)
Classic & Antique Fly Fishing Tackle (1997, 2002)
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

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Re: A Touradif rod

#112

Post by 2dabacking »

Greetings A.J.,

Thanks for your comments. If I may ask, what is it that makes you certain that Ed Payne did not produce the hardware for the early Waltons? I have seen Jeff's four rods, and I must respectfully argue that they were made by Ed Payne (the early Walton being a joint effort). Please take a look earlier in the thread wherein those rods are discussed vis-a-vis Thomas and Payne.

I believe Thomas, Edwards, Payne, Hawes, and to a lesser degree Varney were all making similar hardware in their early years, since they all worked and learned the trade together. I have laid all of the above makers' ferrules side-by-side, and it is very difficult to distinguish one from the other. They all used some version of the early Leonard ferrules, which were made at one point or another by at least two of the machinists above. Hawes adopted the Leonard split ferrule; Varney patented his version of the serrated ferrule; and Thomas, Edwards, and Payne drew the winding ramps very thin and pinched them to the cane.

It is my current view that a combination of the components, with a focus on the sliding bands, knurling, and incisions, will help us identify the maker. Documentation will also greatly help. In this case, I may be wrong, but I do not believe Thomas made rods for A&F until after its merger with VL&D in 1928. By that time, the Touradif rods were being phased out. I am open to discussion and welcome the opportunity to learn. I have nothing but respect for you, A.J., but it will be a very hard sell to get me to believe that the Touradif rods were made by Thomas.

Best wishes,
Joel

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Re: A Touradif rod

#113

Post by Broken Rod »

Back to you, Joel

We have differing opinions, but that's part of the collector game. Awhile back, I posted a large and clear photo of a Transitional Walton on the other rod board and got absolutely no response. Check it out. If this rod-- which is identical to the two Touradifs I mentioned in the above post-- was not made by Thomas, then please correct me... again. As far as ferrules go, I firmly believe both Thomas and Payne (early-on) were using Montagues and customizing them. Therefore the similarity. The full-metal seat on this rod is IDENTICAL (minus the soldered rails) to the one on the prototype Kosimic featuring Read's ferrules, now in the collection of Jeff Knapp. This reel seat was made prior to Payne as a partner, no later than the first few months of 1890. This is the "medium reel plate," having a diameter of 75/100, which I assign as a product of George Varney, no Payne. I will continue to believe that when the former Leonard gang (Thomas, Hiram Hawes, Payne, etc.) finally went out on their own, they used Montague-Varney fittings on their trade rods. Why would any maker expensively turn his own ferrules-- for a trade rod-- when he could purchase, customize, and anneal, something already available to every trade craftsman?

As for the Walton? Fred Thomas' personal rod was a Walton, stamped with his name. "THE ISAAK WALTON" die stamp was owned and used by Thomas, starting with the U.S. Net & Twine First Model Waltons, through the Transitional Waltons (developed in Brewer), and continuing on the Second Model Waltons built in Bangor and sold through Whittemore. That die stamp never changed hands, never went to Payne or Montague. If later Waltons (The Second Model) happen to look like Montagues, it was simply because the hardware was purchased from Montague. I have a collection of photos of rods built with this hardware and made by Fred Thomas, Billy Edwards, and George Varney.

Basically, that's my argument. It's just an argument, my personal view of how several makers used stock fittings, accessible and cheaper than they could make them from scratch. As for knurling? Holy mackeral! Take a look at various KNOWN Thomas reel bands and notice how the knurling differs. Knurling tools were stock items, made by toolmakers, not by the rodmaker himself. I look at rods with a view of "production," not artsy-fartsy bench-made artifacts. Ed Payne, Billy Edwards, Hiram Hawes, and Fred Thomas, and every other production rodmaker, had families to feed and mortgages to pay. They built rods to earn a living, not when they "felt like it." They bought material at the cheapest price; and oft enough, that material came from a factory that specialized in quality fittings-- Montague.

Like I say, this is just my old-fart's opinion, and coming from someone who once made rods to feed and clothe his kids. No offense meant, and none taken.
"He started off in the wood-turning trade."
Profile on Fred Thomas, 1906

Author:
Successful Shark Fishing (1996)
Classic & Antique Fly Fishing Tackle (1997, 2002)
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

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Re: A Touradif rod

#114

Post by 2dabacking »

A.J.,

I don't mind a little spirited, friendly debate, and I certainly value your opinion. It is a healthy way to find some facts, and I hope we can uncover some with regard to the Touradif rods. I can't view your Walton rod. Are you able to post it or email it to me? Weren't there three different stamps: "The Walton," "The Isaak Walton," and "The Isaac Walton?" Are we certain that all three stamps were held by Thomas, and that all versions were made by Thomas solely?

Other than Walton-grade rods which have been sold in past auctions, I have not seen many, so it is difficult for me to make the comparison. I can't compare rods which I have not seen.

As for Thomas rods, please show me a marked Thomas rod with components that match those on any Touradif rods. I am still searching for a marked Thomas rod with knurling that resembles the knurling on Touradif rods - or a similar winding check. That would start to sway me into believing that Thomas may have made some Touradif rods.

As a good friend recently stated, Ed Payne must have been a frugal individual to make great rods and provide for his family. I believe it. I doubt that he ever had more than one or two knurling tools, as I have never seen knurling on a Payne rod that wasn't straight, or perpendicular to the rod.

I don't dispute that the Kosmic crew and then Thomas used Montague fittings for certain rods. I might even buy the argument that Payne used Montague or Landman ferrules for certain rods (though I have yet to see one). As far as I know, Payne never advertised multiple grades of rods. In my opinion, Payne adopted a different (not necessarily better, just different) business plan than Thomas. It appears that Payne focused less on volume and more on one or two grades at premium prices. Payne does appear to have made less costly rods, but the components were all quite consistent with those on his marked rods. The difference between the rods was likely the result of producing components more efficiently and using less costly materials on hand, such as a snake stripping guide, agate-less tip tops, minimally turned hardware, and wooden spacers. If he did make a trade rod with Monty components, how would we recognize it? Why bother to purchase finished ferrules from Montague only to go through the steps to customize them? Wouldn't it be more efficient to start with purchased tubing and work that? If we are talking about minimal customization, I understand, but it wouldn't make sense to remove the heavier Monty welt and replace it, as well as draw it thinner and tweak more.

Something about the fact that Payne was a machinist (who supplied ferrules) makes it difficult for me to believe that he purchased ferrules and then took the time to machine them further for any of his rods. The Touradif ferrules more closely resemble Leonard and Kosmic ferrules than any Montague ferrules that I have ever seen. It seems more likely that Payne was utilizing the left-over stock from Kosmic and Leonard in addition to his own stock. Perhaps, too, Thomas ended up with a mass amount of early left-over Walton parts supplied by Chubb/Monty (and continued to purchase Monty parts for his lower grade rods)? Some of the later Walton rods have higher quality components than others, correct?

Consistent with his business plan, I also believe that Payne chose to contract with a handful of select retailers, such as Whittemore and A&F (adding others over time as capacity permitted). Such relationships (plus word of mouth) most likely kept Payne at full capacity, and Ed likely had little reason to put much capital into marketing. He could focus on making rods with a steady work flow and minimal overhead (one reason why sole agents were appealing).

In sum, I am not yet convinced that there were more than 2 or 3 possible makers of the Touradif rods. The rods and components are too uniform among the rods. Unless A&F was buying rod blanks from various makers and assembling them in house, I don't see how several makers could have produced such a consistent product. I believe Payne made all Touradif rods which have no serial number and the ones with just a serial number. The later Touradif rods, which are marked with an "X" followed by a number, are still a mystery to me.

Regards,
Joel

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Re: A Touradif rod

#115

Post by Broken Rod »

Back to you, Joel,

I have a hard time figuring out how to place photos on all forums except Roman Army Talk, which is very user-friendly. You are (almost) correct-- but "The Isaac Walton" was a different animal. Here's a time-frame on the model, starting with the earliest:

First Model
"GEO. B. APPLETON & CO., BOSTON" (small block letters) 1889-90
"Geo. B. Appleton & Co., Boston" (in large script) 1890-93
"APPLETON & BASSETT, BOSTON" (block letters) 1893-1901, include serial #s
"THE WALTON, A.G. SPALDING & BROS." (large and small block letters) 1891-94
"THE ISAAK WALTON, U.S. NET & TWINE CO." (block letters) 1894-98 (include serial #s, continued by Thomas and Edwards into 1899 at Woodbury)

Transitional Model
"THE ISAAK WALTON" 1900-c.1902 (include serial #s, by Thomas w/some small help from Edwards in 1901. I think at Brewer only. First ones sold through Whittemore.)

Second Model
"THE ISAAK WALTON" c.1902-27 or slightly later (no serial #s, total Montague fittings, all built in Bangor and sold through Whittemore.)

I'll email some photos of die stamps, grip checks, and sliding bands to you, and you can see similarities in the Transitional, Touradif, early Dirigo, and Hunter.

best, ;)
A.J.
"He started off in the wood-turning trade."
Profile on Fred Thomas, 1906

Author:
Successful Shark Fishing (1996)
Classic & Antique Fly Fishing Tackle (1997, 2002)
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

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Re: A Touradif rod

#116

Post by quashnet »

This A&F advertisement appeared in the Saturday, May 27, 1905 issue of Forest & Stream. The broken type is as it appeared in the newspaper, and is not a digital problem. The claim (whatever it may mean) is made that "The TOURADIF and BIC RODS are our own makes..."

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Re: A Touradif rod

#117

Post by 2dabacking »

Quashnet, nice find and thank you. It seems that the word "manufacture" was used by nearly every early retailer, whether or not they actually made goods. If they had the rods made for them, that was good enough to be called a manufacturer, it seems.

Many thanks, A.J., for that timeline. I gave it some thought over the weekend, and, while I remain steadfast about the A&F rods, I will concede to your points regarding Thomas and Montague. I can form an argument based on my own opinions, but I don't know enough about either Thomas or Montague in the early years to shed any light with evidence. It would make sense that Thomas may have purchased components from Montague for certain grades of rods, since Kosmic did the same with Chubb for its Walton-grade rods.

Being that I also do not know enough about Walton rods, I will provide two statements that I do believe: i) Payne had a hand in making some of the Walton rods while organized with Thomas and Edwards and later with Thomas, and ii) Payne had a hand in making at least some of "THE ISAAK WALTON" rods, including your rod and Jeff H's rod.

Because I am reluctant to dive too deeply into Walton rods, I will steer us back to the the A&F rods and provide a list of key points and facts regarding those rods:
- All of the known early (those with just a number or no number at all) Touradif and BIC rods share all components with marked Payne rods.
- Payne was the sole manufacturer of Kosmic rods beginning in 1898.
- Kosmic rods were sold by A&F in 1903 and 1904.
- Touradif and Kosmic rods share some key features as well. In particular, the signature wraps are nearly identical.
- The Touradif rods were offered in the exact same length and similar weight range as the Payne Kosmics.
- There were apparent connections between Payne and employees at A&F.
- The rod cuts and descriptions in A&F catalogs provide a remarkable resemblance to Payne rods, including some rather unique to Payne.

Regards,
Joel

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Re: A Touradif rod

#118

Post by reelmaker »

where does this Walton rod fit in the history above?

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Re: A Touradif rod

#119

Post by 2dabacking »

reelmaker, Your rod looks like the second model from the post-1900 period mentioned by A.J. above. Montague/Varney-style fittings and calcutta cane. I'll let A.J. provide you more detail. Nice rod! Thanks for sharing it.

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Re: A Touradif rod

#120

Post by North country brookie »

Reelmaker,

I own a rod identical to yours, and Joel is correct. It would be a second model.

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