A Touradif rod

[5strips]

For what it's worth, I wanted to add these photos of a Valise rod I unfortunately sold a while back (why do we do that). I'm hoping it can add something to this excellent thread.
If I remember correctly, it was marked "TOURADIF" and had the "BIC"
Beautifully made ferrules

[Broken Rod]

Okay, I'll bite. Who are they attributed to?

Looking at the rod on top, where the cork meets the wood, I want to say that it looks a little Divine. The winding check as well as the start of the wraps also look something like Divines' work???

The maker of both rods was Ed Payne. The style of the cork meeting the wood can be found on Thomas & Payne rods dating back to 1896. Here's a photo of an example:



This style of seat was much like the "modern" cap and ring. It was used by Thomas, Payne, and also Edwards for the next 20 years. However, the BIC illustrated in my above post has a round barrel and a pair of German silver guide rails-- reminiscent of the Kosmic seat. The second BIC rod (only marked to A&F) has a swaged Varney seat, then the standard of the industry.

Hey, 5strips! What a pretty rod you Once Owned.

[uniquafly]

OK, here are hardware details for my BIC. The welts on the females are not familiar to me. Female ferrules are pinned, while males are not. No serrations, just a winding plain ramp, but it's crimped to the flats. Though drawn, males slides are sized, usually a sign of a better maker. Also note circles on the butt cap. Was that a Divine characteristic as well? Forward end of the cedar filler has a step where it meets the grip.

In Michael Sinclairs book on Restoration reference the Fred D. Divine company, he states "The easiest way to spot a Divine rod is the reelseat. If the reelseat was wood, it was turned at the grip in two steps to form a wood grip check. No other maker has ever used this style of reelseat."

Jeffkn1,
I will go one further and say yes, you will find two circles pressed into the bottom of a Divine reelseat, just like the reel seats on the rods that are attributed to Payne. Regarding these "unattributed" rods would it be too far fetched to put forth the idea that they could have been made by Divine?

Broken Rod,
I'm not saying that this person is wrong or that person is wrong, I'm just trying to put some thought in play that may bring new things to light. It is also very possible that I could be late to the station with these ideas and they have already been examined.

[Broken Rod]

Back to you, Uniquafly

As I said, this style of "stepped" wooden seat was used by Thomas & Payne as least by 1896 (based on serial #394 of 850). I will picture another rod with the same seat, explicitly mentioned in Fred Thomas' memo-book, "10ft Nessmuk," which he shipped to John Wood Cycle & Arms on February 25, 1898. This rod and its reel seat comes from Fred's own documentation. He only made one 10-foot Nessmuk for John Wood.


This same stepped seat was later used by Ed Payne alone, by Thomas alone, by Edwards alone and in a short collaboration with Thomas in the latter teens. It would be my guess that Michael Sinclair-- indeed an excellent historian-- was simply not familiar with the total output of Thomas and his rodmaking companions when he wrote the statement.

Also note that Jeff's BIC has a different roll-stamping than the two that I posted. Earlier in this thread, I think Joel posted a chronology... and the prime "suspect" for Jeff's rod appears to be Divine. The Touradif-BIC progression appears to be Payne first, Edwards second (or Edwards with Thomas), and then the X-numbered ones by Divine.

I don't see anything contestable. We just have 4 known rodmakers who used a similar reel seat.

[uniquafly]

I got ya. very interesting, indeed

[2dabacking]

A.J. and Kevin, incredible rods!

Hi folks,
Much of this discussion went offline, so I apologize for not getting back to posting more here. To be somewhat brief, below is a quick synopsis:

In 1903, A&F was just branching out into fishing tackle, and it contracted, I believe, with Ed Payne to make its Touradif and BIC rods. Two well-known employees, Lou Darling and Edwin Osgood likely knew Payne well. Osgood had a long-standing relationship with Kosmic, and Darling was known in the same circles as Ed and happened to prefer Payne rods. Below is a photo of Darling's fishing outfit. It includes his favorite 8' Payne rod. It may have even been a Touradif, but the description only states that it was "Made by Payne." I also show, in the last photo, Darling's rod next to a marked Payne and marked Touradif. For more on Osgood, Charlie wrote an excellent article found here: http://www.amff.com/assets/images/archi ... No1web.pdf. (Thanks also to the generous folks at the AMFF.)

I believe Payne continued making rods for A&F until the mid-teens. Ed Payne died in 1914. I am not sure if Jim assumed making the Touradif and BIC rods for a couple of years after his father's death, but Jim most likely did not make Touradif and BIC rods beyond c. 1917/8, when he entered into an agreement with A&I to distribute Payne rods (The move by Payne came just after David Abercrombie joined A&I in 1917 and headed up the camping and fishing lines). This agreement did not last long, as Jim was back to making his own line of rods for A&F by 1925 (and A&F became an exclusive NY agent, again, by the mid-'30s).

At some point, Divine took over making the Touradif and BIC rods. Those rods are marked with an "X" serial number. I do not know if Divine started making those rods in 1914, 1917, or in 1920. It is my best guess that Divine started making those rods in 1920. It appears that there was a short three or four year window where the rods were being made by Edwards (before he headed to Winchester in 1919). It is likely that Montague or another made rods marked with an "O" prefix, but I only recall seeing one rod with that serial number, so I have not followed up on that lead.

Joel

[uniquafly]

Thanks, Joel

This has been a most interesting thread. Great reading

[Broken Rod]

Hello, Joel

Thanks for the great info on Darling and the link to Charlie's article on Osgood. This thread on the Touradif and BIC has been incredibly informative-- One of the best threads put together on this rod board. I've learned so much.

Here's a photo of the immediate predecessor of the Payne-built Touradif. It's an Isaak Walton now in the Gnome's collection, built around 1898-99 by Thomas & Payne in either Woodbury or Highland Mills.

[2dabacking]

Uniquafly, Thanks.

A.J., Thank you.
That Walton in the Gnome's collection is a gem. It is fascinating to see how Thomas and Payne rods evolved over time. They must have been good friends and partners.

Many individuals contributed to this thread, and I sincerely thank you all.

[teter]

Still a great thread, two and a half years after it started.
For what it's worth, the milled step where the reel seat meets the cork was also used by Jim Payne on occasion.

[Broken Rod]

Still a great thread, two and a half years after it started.
For what it's worth, the milled step where the reel seat meets the cork was also used by Jim Payne on occasion.

Teter, it's good to know that Jim Payne followed the tradition of this reel seat style. This has been an extremely informative thread, thanks to Joel and all who participated. I would like to see further examples of Touradifs and BICs if anyone finds more of them. In that light, here is BIC number X102 as made by Divine. Sorry about the quality of the pics. They were shot under a single lamp at Jerry Girard's house:








And here is a spectacular Ed Payne Touradif, quite late-- #1338. The rod is 8ft 6in, weighs exactly 4 ounces, and tosses a 2-weight line. It came to me with the original tip tube, and in the original bag marked "8 1/2" in Hanna Payne's penciled handwriting. This is the stuff we dream of yet seldom find.

[Scottscapes]

My Abercrombie and Fitch BIC rod for comparison.
It is x95 and suspected to be a Divine.
First outing last night secured 2 good Grayling on the dry fly.
I would like to restore it to original wrappings as it has obviously been rewrapped at some time.
Any ideas as to the age or maker would be very welcome.

[bamboocollector11]

Yes it was made by Divine. I was trying to cut a deal on shipping with the seller when he sold it to you and he messaged me apologizing. Shipping rods from the UK to the U.S. can be challenging for the inexperienced seller.
From the pictures, all it looked like the rod needed was a stripping, re- wrapping, and possibly new guides. For what you have into it, I would find pics of an original on line or PM me for some as I have a few of these, match the thread color to the best of your ability and perform the refinish yourself. Most likely pre-1920 vintage.

[Scottscapes]

Thanks that's great information and I would love any pics of the original wrap pattern. Did the original have any intermediates?
I gently cleaned the ferrules and the reel fittings. Divine certainly used quality materials. The ferrules are still in fantastic condition considering the age.
Many thanks, Iain

[Bamboocollector#1]

Iain,

Below are the pics of an original non restored BIC as requested. Sorry for the delay; new phone and couldn't get my old name and password to work.

Stay healthy my friends!
Ed

[Scottscapes]

Fantastic!
Thanks so much for all the help. I'll post pics once it is restored.

[Bamboocollector#1]

Taking the rod out for pics showed me several with dry wraps, so all wraps got a touch-up to protect them.

As some say, good karma, otherwise the wraps sometimes get damaged even stored in conditioned space.

All the best Ilian!

[Scottscapes]

One more question about my Divine Bic.
Does anyone have an idea of rough line weight for the rod? I am thinking maybe a 3 or 4wt?

Many thanks

[Scottscapes]

After stripping and rewrapping/initial varnish coat.
Back to something closer to the original, not an exact copy. Maybe it could be The Divine Spirit?
Happy Christmas all.

[billems]

This is all new to me. I'm enjoying the analysis.