Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

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NorCalTrout
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Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#1

Post by NorCalTrout »

Hi,
I just got Hardy St. John 3 7/8 off ebay. My new Steelhead reel here on NorCal Coast for my 10' 8wt. Wondering if any of you Hardy experts could put a date on this reel? Smooth Brass Foot. 3 screw. "D" stamped on both sides for Duralumin. Sorry having trouble uploading photos. My guess is early 1920's because of the smooth Brass foot but not sure when ribbed brass foot came before or not. I'll try and post photos soon but encourage all to give me their best guess.

Thanks

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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#2

Post by NorCalTrout »

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Hope these photos load





MFRS
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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#7

Post by MFRS »

Hi NorCalTrout, That reel is one of the first St. John's made I suspect, based on the screws in the foot. It would date range this reel from 1922-27 based on the smooth foot. This would be the earliest example I have ever seen, nice find. The ribbed foot (improved reel grip) first showed in the 1928 Hardy's catalogue. The publication date for this patent was June 16, 1927.

NorCalTrout
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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#8

Post by NorCalTrout »

Thanks MFRS for your assessment. My guess was early 1920's so I wasn't too far off it seems. I paid $250 USD so may not have been the deal of the century but don't care. This reel is in top functioning shape - a real tank and plan on using it a lot. Cannot wait to hear it scream soon with some Steel on the end of the line!

Thanks again for your reply MFRS!

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jhuskey
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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#9

Post by jhuskey »

You've come far pilgrim........ i.e., nice score!

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dder
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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#10

Post by dder »

I don,t have a lot of books on Hardy reels but that D stamp is I think a makers mark and have seen it before, maybe Denny Ward if time frame is right. A very nice early St John and hope you catch a lot of steelhead on it. Daryl

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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#11

Post by Brian K. Shaffer »

Old post here... had a question to see if the D was in fact something that could be figured out.... ? It's not Dingley right ?
Cool old St. John by the way. Still the oldest one seen on the forum ?
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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#12

Post by MFRS »

Brian Shaffer wrote:Old post here... had a question to see if the D was in fact something that could be figured out.... ? It's not Dingley right ?
Cool old St. John by the way. Still the oldest one seen on the forum ?
Not likely able to figure out that D as that reel is leaded and from all the responses I have read over the years that duralumin does not require it. It is not Dingley, and it is unusual for the makers stamp to appear on the spool. It could be that a letter was used as a part identifier or an overzealous apprentice coming out of the gate; one will never know.

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quashnet
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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#13

Post by quashnet »

I have a Hardy St. George with this same D on both the cage and the spool. The shape of the D is ever so slightly different from the much earlier D of Dingley. In response to my inquiries, the best suggestion from the Forum in years past is that Denys Ward used this mark, in addition to his known use of the D.W mark stamped in smaller letters.
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sovereign
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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#14

Post by sovereign »

I would say that your Hardy Sgt. John was made somewhere between 1922 and 1928. Dublicated check came 1921/22 and ribbed brass foot 1928. The Hardys reel-makers stamp are only on one place , in the cage ! other stamps seems to be to insure the correct fit between different parts of the reel. A reel made by the Hardy reel-maker William Dingley shall be dated from 1908 ? to 1910/11. After that Dingley started a firm of his own. For me, so far, I prefer a Hardy reel stamped D made from Hardy Brothers Alnwick England ( if I goes for a D stamped reel, many, many other Hardy-reels and Hardy reel-makers are of my interest, I think its more the real thing ( and safe ) with a Hardy reel stamped D for DINGLEY! A fantastisk firm HARDY employed a great reel-maker DINGLEY! From 1908? to 1910/!11 ( the stamping of the reels started 1908 ? I think. // Steen Pictured : A Hardy Silex 33/4" ( William Dingley was the maker / inventor ? of those reels in the first fully developed model ? ) Enjoy ! and watch out for the " hype" of D stamped reels ! Hardy Silex no. 1 made between 1908 to 1910 are the safe reels to search for I think, thats around 450 reels in all we have to search for minus the ones that failed to survive 110 years of age and fishing !. Good hunting ! PS: For the Hardy Perfects you will find a reel-makers stamp ( If Stamped, many are not ) on the inside of the winding-plate.
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Stalefish
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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#15

Post by Stalefish »

That is a very nice St John! Definitely an early one. The St. John first appeared in the catalogue in 1923 following the prototype of John Hardy. The first style was supposed to have a more heavily ventilated spool and drum than what was subsequently offered. The original spec was a reel that weighed only 6 1/4 oz! This, along with the price was amended in 1924 to reflect the production reel's actual weight at 7 1/2 oz; that weight reflecting the current pattern of St. John. The patent for the ribbed brass foot, No 272409 was filed Jan. 19 1927. This puts your reel somewhere between 1923 and 1927. Surely an excellent find! My guess would be on the earlier side as the handle is mounted inboard and the more decorative "rope" knurled tensioner screw would be more labour intensive to manufacture. If I were guessing at least, that's what I'd say. 23' or within a few years of that date at the latest.

To clear up the marking. The D is likely a batch number. Hardy reel makers regularly use a symbol on the spool and frame to indicate a matching pair. Lots of neat features on this reel though. The mill work around the spindle on the frame, is that a knurl between the concentric circles? Also note the 9261 patent number. Pre-1929 for St. Johns.

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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#16

Post by Hugo »

I was researching my St John's reel when I came across this post. It looks like my reel is very similar. Anyway, I thought I would post some photos of it because instead of a D stamped on the inside it has the letter N. There is also a corresponding N stamped on the spool. I don't know what the N signifies but I would be interested to hear if anyone does know. Thanks
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Brian K. Shaffer
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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#17

Post by Brian K. Shaffer »

Howdy Hugo an outstanding question and great pics!
That is a super St John 3 screw... hope it screams bloody murder.
The striking of a mark to tell them apart - on both parts.

Likely to keep the spool and frame together - going thru the alphabet instead of using roman numerals.
Makes for quick reference that the two pieces have already been mated together.

Page 189 - Drewitt / Hardy Brothers - inset picture
St. john Patent #9261 was applied in 1923 - then it had a fully ported spool. The extra spool holes did not stay into production.
Also not seen are the 14 spokes around the interior of the reels spool.
Making it an ultra large arbor reel - but never to be.
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" Just once I wish a trout would wink at me. " ~ Brian Shaffer

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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#18

Post by GOACH »

I just purchased a similar reel. Can someone help date the reel with the pictures I've attached. It has a ribbed brass foot with the patent no 272409. The reel also has the letter S stamped on the inside of the reel.
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thanks

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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#19

Post by SpringCreek »

Based on the circular stamping and ribbed foot, the reel would date between 1927 and the end of WWII. Having said that, it appears to have black paint in spots and on the interior of the reel. If that is the case it was made sometime during World War II as war time reels were often finished this way.

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Re: Hardy St. John 3 7/8 - Need a date made estimate

#20

Post by GOACH »

Thanks for the insights. I was curious as to when / what years they started putting the patent number on the reel because the reel I have doesn't have it.

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