Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

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Duff
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Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#1

Post by Duff »

I have recently been seriously taken by 8' - 8.5' early Leonard Catskill rods. I think they are absolutely gorgeous and would love to try one for spring creek fishing. Most of the lighter ones I see are advertised as 3/4 weights which makes me wonder. Were there really light line dry fly rods built back in the day (teens - 1930's). If not, could it be that they become "light line" (3/4 weights) rods through many years of use? (I realize that many vintage rods were designed for wet fly fishing so were naturally on the slow side but I am speaking here only about dry fly tapers.)

As almost everyone on this forum has probably read, Vincent Marinaro thought that all bamboo rods began to degrade from the very first cast. Leonard Wright felt much the same and wrote that his once "steely and brisk 8' Halstead dry fly rod had, after 750 days of hard fishing, become a slow, lazy parody of its former self". These views seem reasonable since most things that bend experience fatigue. I've never personally experienced a rod getting slower over time but I think it could happen. Sometimes I think the feel of a rod has changed if I have not cast it for some time, but most likely it is me rather than the rod that has changed. One of the finest casting bamboo rods I've owned is a Heddon trade rod, an 8' Folsom 0-ferrule. To me it's a wonderful DT4/WF5 but it might have started out as a solid six weight eighty years ago. It's troubling to think that vintage bamboo rods are consumables, particularly so when you consider that the beautifully restored Payne that cost you a fortune is possibly a completely different rod than when it was in the rack at Abercrombie and Fitch in 1935?

64Emmons
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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#2

Post by 64Emmons »

I go along with your reading of Marinaro's and even go further. In the Ring Of The Rise he talks about heavy line rods being useful. I agree. I am almost entirely a spring creek fisherman. I do steelheading, as long as it is Summer steelheading, and find that at Hot Creek a Ranch I fish seven weights, more often than lighter line rods. I have been shoulder to shoulder with guys fishing Brandin three weights but they are trying too hard to fire the fly to a six inch drift when a seven weight allows a calmer cast with more leader control. A languid seven weight line on weeds makes no more disturbance than a bullet three weight. And, frankly, when you are fishing weed slots high line speed has zero advantage. A tight loop does nothing for you when you need tricks done with your selected portion of your leader.
Now, the goofy thing is, I am more inclined to fish a five weight for steelhead. I dont think the fish care if the pattern is a size four spade or a size twelve. I am fishing damp though. And steelheading I am not trying to drop a fly on the edge of a twelve inch weed slot forty feet away.
Chris

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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#3

Post by 64Emmons »

Back to your question, I thing guys on this forum typically underline rods. There are a lot of examples of rods for sale described al light line rods. Lighter than I have ever known them to be. When Phil Snyder and Art Warner were putting out their mail lists of used vintage rods, I cast them and provided my input for descriptions or wrote the descriptions for some rods. I am astounded by the line weights that are given for many rods today. It is as if old rods are made to be tip casters by guys used to graphite actions.
The early Leonard dry fly actions you refer to did not exist by today's standards. Dry fly in those days was less than wet fly. I had an eight foot Fairy Catskill that weighed 2 1/2 ounces that was no where a dry fly rod with a running line. I have never owned a 50DF that was what anyone today would call a dry fly action, even if you used a lot of left hand and kept rod movement at a minimum. It seems that the 8 plus foot classic tapers did not really open up to be modern DF actions until you got to heavier line weights such as HCH. You could use a classic rod and underline it, but that is not that rod's sweet spot. But then, I used to teach guys casting with a wading staff with taped on guides, and. Number two Ticondaroga with a tip top too. And it worked.
Old Leonard Catskills are pretty, but for spring creek work, where you are trying to hit tea cups with a six inch drift, no. You can maybe underline a 50 1/2 but you are still casting an underlined rod or making it do what it was not meant to do.
Chris

64Emmons
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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#4

Post by 64Emmons »

I never understood the Leonard LeTort series of rods. But I am from the school of slower line speed and more mass or line weight. And I think Marinaro's writings show he agreed. But I never met the man and only knew him from one letter and a single phone call.
Chris

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Holland
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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#5

Post by Holland »

Great insights, thanks for sharing your thoughts 64Emmons.

Gene

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Flykuni3
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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#6

Post by Flykuni3 »

I've learned to accept and sometimes love the noodle, has taken a very long time. I now own and fish some truly soft, medium rods. IMHO it takes a certain fisherman who knows how not to hurry a cast, really, you might say that a very soft rod is casting you. So, an old Leonard (regardless of model but esp. the Catskills) won't be a general purpose or massively popular rod amongst us.

Soft rods are great for the right situation, calm days, medium to small waters, smaller trout, gentler flows, and hell on the opposite. IMHO of course.

bvandeuson
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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#7

Post by bvandeuson »

So, does anyone have any information indicating when line weights smaller than 5wt were first used on a regular basis? I know when I started fly fishing in the early 70's, 6 or 7 wt. for average trout fishing was considered pretty standard. All you need to do is consider the plethora of rods still available from that era in those line weights.

BB

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Tom2Cast
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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#8

Post by Tom2Cast »

bvandeuson wrote:So, does anyone have any information indicating when line weights smaller than 5wt were first used on a regular basis? I know when I started fly fishing in the early 70's, 6 or 7 wt. for average trout fishing was considered pretty standard. All you need to do is consider the plethora of rods still available from that era in those line weights.BB
I'm guessing 1931 when two companies started making light-line bamboo fly rods:

Payne 96 6' 1 1/4 -1 1/2oz
Payne 98 7' 2 1/4 - 2 1/2oz
Payne 100 7'6" 2 1/2 - 2 7/8oz

Winston's Leetle Fellers 5'6" 1 3/4oz - 7' 3 1/8oz
-Tom

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Slate Drake 9
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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#9

Post by Slate Drake 9 »

Maybe it was just marketing by Orvis, but I think I remember reading somewhere that they said the 7/3 was the first production 3 weight rod when it was introduced.
Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.

64Emmons
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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#10

Post by 64Emmons »

Tom2Cast wrote:
bvandeuson wrote:So, does anyone have any information indicating when line weights smaller than 5wt were first used on a regular basis? I know when I started fly fishing in the early 70's, 6 or 7 wt. for average trout fishing was considered pretty standard. All you need to do is consider the plethora of rods still available from that era in those line weights.BB
I'm guessing 1931 when two companies started making light-line bamboo fly rods:

Payne 96 6' 1 1/4 -1 1/2oz
Payne 98 7' 2 1/4 - 2 1/2oz
Payne 100 7'6" 2 1/2 - 2 7/8oz

Winston's Leetle Fellers 5'6" 1 3/4oz - 7' 3 1/8oz
-Tom
I had a 1920s Leonard Fairy Catskill that was three pieces, eight feet long and weighed under 2 1/2 ounces. It had full intermediate and a Spanish Cedar seat and the tips were 0.048". It was a two weight or a Transpar running line. It had the loveliest lettuce wraps and a form case. It was useless. I sent it around to several makers back then, such as Per B and no one was impressed. I never measured it because of all the intermediates in the way. But, I would have done nothing with the numbers anyway.
Chris

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JohnMD1022
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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#11

Post by JohnMD1022 »

bvandeuson wrote:
03/17/16 04:43
So, does anyone have any information indicating when line weights smaller than 5wt were first used on a regular basis? I know when I started fly fishing in the early 70's, 6 or 7 wt. for average trout fishing was considered pretty standard. All you need to do is consider the plethora of rods still available from that era in those line weights.

BB
I began fishing the south Pennsylvania limestone creeks in 1968.

Four weights were common, and my first cane rod was four wt Orvis Midge.

For several years after that, I fished an 8’3” Sharpes Eighty Three.

When your leader o 14-16 feet, does it matter? The

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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#12

Post by Woodlakejag »

Kind of an old thread, but still an interesting read. My two cents is that in order to understand rod actions you have to view them in relation to the lines and leaders in use at the time the rod was made. Gut leaders needed soft, slow rods to protect them from breaking.
When plastic WF lines were developed after WWII, rod design changed significantly.
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Re: Vintage light line dry fly bamboo?

#13

Post by barebo »

You all may think that I'm full of cow dung but I fish my 1920's vintage round bamboo Montague with a WF3 and it lays a line out beautifully. It is a 9'6" rod with 4/64 tips and tiny heavy wire snakes. And yes it is softer in the tips but has surprising power no less and turns long light leaders over nicely.
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