Second test drive of the Phoenix DT6 silk.....This time using a Pickard 806....A stiffer rod but still parabolic and this is a six weight rod....The DT6 felt
more comfortable on the 806 vs the 795 (a 5 weight)....
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anyone fishing Phoenix silk lines?
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 Chartist1 |
#21 | |||
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Posts: 251 03/12/2009 17:15 |
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RPL |
#22 | |||
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Posts: 148 03/12/2009 18:16 |
Okay, I measured off the first 30 ft. of Phoenix DT 5-weight line and weighed it, both dry and wet. When dry, it weighed in at 8 grams or about 123 grains.
(1 gram = 15.43 grains) That puts it below the 134 - 146 grain standard for 5-weight lines. Please see chart below.
The same Phoenix line, when immersed in cold water for about 5 minutes and patted dry, weighed in at 9 grams or 139 grains. My scale measures to the nearest gram, not down to grains. 9 grams on my digital scale, assuming that it's accurate, could be anywhere in the 8.6 - 9.4 gram range, which converts to 133 - 145 grains. That weight puts it in the 134 - 146 grain standard for 5-weights. It could be on the light side, but perhaps another 5 minutes in water would bring it to the mid-point in the standard. Please take all this with a grain of salt, but my crude measurements seem to indicate that Phoenix when wet does fall within the standard. Copied the following from the Cortland website: "Standard Line Weights Grain weights are for the first 30' of the line. AFTMA (the former American Fishing Tackle Manufacturers Association- now the ASA- American Sportfishing Association) Fly Line Standards were developed to help fly fishing tackle manufacturers create a system that would match fly line weight to fly rod performance. Cortland Line Company's Leon Chandler was instrumental in initiating and completing the project. In theory this would standardize fly tackle manufacturing across the industry and enable fly fishers to select and balance their equipment for optimum performance. The system uses the weight in grains (a very small weight measure) of the first 30 feet of fly line as a standard. The table below shows fly line weight designations and their grain weight. The system also established a tolerance level that is acceptable. Number Designation Standard Weight Margin For Error 1-Weight 60 54-66 2-Weight 80 74-86 3-Weight 100 94-106 4-Weight 120 114-126 5-Weight 140 134-146 6-Weight 160 152-168 7-Weight 185 177-193 8-Weight 210 202-218 9-Weight 240 230-250 10-Weight 280 270-290 11-Weight 330 318-342 12-Weight 380 368-392 13-Weight 450 14-Weight 500 15-Weight 550"
Last Edited By: RPL 03/12/2009 19:43.
Edited 2 times.
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ibookje |
#23 | |||
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Posts: 1513 03/12/2009 18:26 |
Excellent investigation RPL!
Thanks |
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Chartist1 |
#24 | |||
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Posts: 253 03/12/2009 20:13 |
I have a Phoenix DT5 that weighs 28.23 grams and a DT6 that weighs 33.35 grams....These measurements were provided by Olaf who sold me the lines.....
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Chartist1 |
#25 | |||
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Posts: 254 03/12/2009 20:45 |
the coating on the Phoenix lines reduces the drag of the line moving through the guides in a highly noticeable way....I have fished the Cortland Sylk which I
found to be wimpy for lack of a better term.....
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RPL |
#26 | |||
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Posts: 150 03/12/2009 21:26 |
LEO,
My hypothesis (untested) is that many plastic fly lines may have strayed upward from their standard weights as they chased inflated designated weights for graphite rods. In other words, we may have experienced a form of quiet inflation in rod and line weights. This situation becomes more noticeable to cane rod users, especially silk line users, because cane rod and silk line designations have remained relatively faithful to the standard, with no line-weight inflation -- no incessant pursuit of the faster, lighter, better. So many of us perhaps correctly now perceive silk, in equivalent line designations, to be lighter that their plastic counterparts. To reach a clear conclusion about plastic, one would simply have to measure and weigh different plastic fly lines against the standard weights. Has anyone undertaken such a study recently? If those standards have been maintained in plastic fly lines, then the perceived lightness of silk lines might be attributed to characteristics of silk such as smaller diameter and other factors that you have mentioned. If plastic lines have maintained their weight consistent with the standard but increased their diameters, for example, they might float better but feel heavier when cast (because of greater air resistance). In addition, there may be other factors at work that are not yet understood or identified. Interesting questions. |
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RPL |
#27 | |||
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Posts: 151 03/12/2009 22:01 |
LEO -- That's great! A study of line diameters and weights would tell a very interesting story, maybe even worthy of those fly fishing magazines to
which many of us subscribe. I suspect that much more is going on beneath of surface of the fly rod and fly line industry than meets the eye. This subject of
line weights could reveal many interesting angles on recent fly fishing history. Best of luck!
Has anyone weighed the first 30 ft. of various plastic fly lines? Are there data on all line weights somewhere? |
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ttrotter |
#28 | |||
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Posts: 950 03/13/2009 08:46 Moderator |
RPL, Ive weighed a few and found wide variances. Here are a few examples:
Wulff TT 4= 119 gns = mid 4wt Wulff LB 4= 132 gns= light 5 heavy 4 wt Wulff LB 4= 113 gns= light 4wt Wulff TT 5= 145 gns= heavy 5wt Wulff LB 5= 140 gns= mid 5wt Teeny FC 5= 153 gns= light 6wt Moral of the story,--- well, decide for yourselves! but for my money, I'll just try different lines until I find the right one for a particular rod. Then I will write it down so I know which rod likes which line. Also applies to all my silk lines! Half the fun is foolng with stuff like this, particularly in the WINTER Months. Regards, Tom |
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dr knuemann |
Results of weighing silk and plastic lines | #29 | ||
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Posts: 17 03/13/2009 12:01 |
I did some weighing with plastic and silk lines.I weighed about 20 lines.It was quite complicated because you need a scale that weighs 1/100 of a gr or the
weighing is not exact enough.But the scale I got does not weigh more than 80 gr.Thus you cannot weigh the line with a reel and put the first 9,15 m off.I
weighed the first 9,15 m without cutting the line in order not to destroy it.There might be some not quite exact results, but I am convinced my tendency is
true.
Nearly all plastic lines and all brads are too heavy, especially #5 and #6.Although I weighed more WF lines, I found too the DT lines too heavy ,too.Mostly they were too heavy about one line class.Even lines that are supposed to be light as the Sage Quiet Taper WF lines ( not produced any longer ) or The Quiet Taper DT lines.Lines that were correct are my Mastery XPS and my favorate line at the moment the Cortland Platinum WF4.The Cortland WF4 Sylk was a real WF5. When fishing with my Phoenix lines I always felt they are too light.Thus I weighed them too and here are the astonishing results ( at least for my lines ) : DT 6 weighes 10,10 gr ( proper weigh 10,37 gr ), DT 5 weighes 8,9 gr (proper weigh 9,07 gr ) ,DT 3 weighes 6,97 gr ( proper weigh 6,48 gr, maximum weigh for #3 is 6,87).Thus all my Phoenix lines had the correct weigh ,the #3 being on the upper end. For me there are 3 concusions from weighing silk and lines and from fishing them: 1.Silk lines do feel lighter than they really are.It is not true that they are too light ( at least all my lines ) ,what many people say.This corresponds with the results of Dr.Wolfram Schott. 2.Nevertheless silk lines do feel lighter than they really are.I cast the same Bradford rod - a rod that carries a silk line just great, what not all bamboo rods do - with a Cortland Precision Platinum WF 4 ( proper line weigh ) and it cast as if made for that line.But to get the rod in good working order with a silk line ,I had to put the DT 5 Phoenix line ( with proper weigh line ) on . 3. Plastic lines are usually too heavy and it might be this reason that your feeling for the right weigh is spoiled by this fact..But I am also quite sure that silk lines behave different and do feel lighter than they really weigh.This is why I put one line size heavier when fishing my silk lines on my rods and often one line size less with plastic lines. |
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Chartist1 |
#30 | |||
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Posts: 257 03/14/2009 17:15 |
I cast my Phoenix DT6 on my John Pickard 867 Saturday.....I'm gonna have to find a bigger stream cuz my 867 is now a howitzer with this Phoenix line.
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Chartist1 |
#31 | |||
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Posts: 258 03/14/2009 17:41 |
my experience with silk lines so far out in the front yard has me believing that they can make a big improvement in the ability of an average caster (me).
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baetisrodhani |
#32 | |||
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Posts: 41 03/14/2009 20:14 |
LEO wrote:Hello to all... and thanks to you, Leo ! I'm a bit bewildered by the sandstorm this simple question about one brand of fly lines (Phoenix) has raised... I've used only silk lines and cane rods for decades now, not only for the incomparable pleasure they procure to the angler's body and soul, but also very prosaically because they're the most efficient tools made available to the fly fisher. Casting IS a LOT easier than with the synthetic gear ! I was fishing a Northern Norwegian salmon river last summer, mainly with a 10' hollow cane rod and a #8 Thebault line... and wondered how the carbon-plastic anglers made it through their day, so much greater were the efforts they had to muster to deliver their flies to the fish... One of you mentioned guides, grooved by silk lines... Well, the only grooved guides I ever saw belonged to spinning rods reeling in nylon monofilament, and those of a friend's fly rod, produced by a very well famed carbon rod maker, who had used plastic lines with it... And I own quite a few vintage rods that have obviously seen a lot of use, whose guides, tips included, are still totally sound... and they're not the fancy hi-tech things mounted on today's rods ! As far as kinks are concerned ? The well braided lines don't twist, and if they should, I believe it's the leader-fly combination or your wrist that is imparting a spinning motion to the line... And don't say the plastic lines don't: I only remember too well what they're capable of ! A great fishing season to all ! Giles |
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seattlesetters |
#33 | |||
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Posts: 622 03/15/2009 00:26 |
Bon voyage, Giles!
"You know how much I love a nice rack!" |
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sharps4590 |
#34 | |||
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Posts: 113 03/15/2009 13:18 |
Interesting reading and I learned quite a bit in the process.
I too fish mostly with silk lines and once I acquire the "one more rod" I want I expect I'll never use plastic again. It just ain't the same. With all the technicalities of the lines that has been discussed perhaps there has been something missed. The four things I love most are fly fishing with bamboo and silk, hunting with one of my flintlock muzzleloaders, bowhunting with either my longbows or vintage recurves and driving one of my sports cars. Graphite and plastic aren't bamboo and silk any more than the latest high tech compound, cam actuated arrow launching device is a longbow or recurve or a modern, telescopic sighted, sabot encased bullet shooter, powered by pelletized, fructose based propellants is a black powder muzzleloader. They all behave differently and require one to develop or adapt methods and skills learned if the more modern stuff has been used for a period of years. No one with any level of common sense can realistically expect any of their vintage sporting tools to perform in the same manner as their modern tools. My 1981 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce sure as heck ain't the same kind of car as my 2006 Pontiac Solstice, though both are sports cars. Rods, lines, bows, muzzleloaders and sports cars are the same. Over 40 years of playing these 4 games has taught me that if something vintage isn't working well it's more than likely in the way I'm trying to use it.....not the tool or car. Good fishin' to all!....(I'm gonna go look for a mid-50's MG-TF now, thank you!) Vic |
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LEO |
#35 | |||
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Posts: 60 03/15/2009 21:15 |
Vic,
This is spooky... from 1972 to 2000 I owned an Alfa Romeo Duetto Spider! I am wondering if a predisposition to bamboo rods, silk line, and fine vintage Italian roadsters is some sort of viral affliction. LEO |
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Chartist1 |
#36 | |||
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Posts: 260 03/16/2009 08:13 |
When you took your Alpha out for a drive did you also take:
a) a prayer book you'd make it back b) a mechanic in the passenger seat c) your AAA membership card with 10 cents taped to it for a phone call ( there were no cellphones then) The above list is even more recommended for British roadsters like MG |
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Marty |
#37 | |||
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Posts: 56 03/16/2009 08:45 |
Ok I've never had an Alpha but I've had 3 MG's. Must be a symptom of the same disease, bamboo rods, silk lines, older roadsters (I remember the
first AAA call I made with a cell phone thinking this is a lot better).....I'm betting most of us fish in a panama or fedora or Tilley instead of the
younger cooler more practical crowd too.........
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