non argumentative post, just thoughts

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recane1	non argumentative post, just thoughts		Lead	[-]
Posts: 271 11/09/2009 18:57	Tags : None Recently I went fishing with a friend and forum member. I was using a 7 1/2 foot heddon featherweight 2 piece with a swelled butt. He was usuing a rod which he had recently made. It was based on a heddon 8 foot 3 piece, i think a 1 1/2 f or 1 3/4 f with a swelled butt. The thing that I noticed was how much lighter his rod was compared to mine. I questioned this to my friend. He felt as if mine was made with denser bamboo. So, Ever since then I have been thinking about that statement. Does that mean that my rod is going to be stronger? does that mean that my rod is going to have a slower action? If that is so, then does that mean that taper and ferrule size don't really determine the action of the rod? Keep in mind that my rod had only one ferrule and his had 2. We both had about the same reel and his was 6 inches longer than mine. Aaron Wiener
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JimP.fishnbanjosplace		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 110 11/09/2009 19:38	Makes me wonder if Pre-embargo cane is not denser because it was allowed to grow longer before harvesting. Any thoughts? JimP
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bobbeegee		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3212 11/09/2009 20:03	Now that's a good question Aaron. Any reel seat considerations? Bob
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Marty		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 308 11/09/2009 20:11	I am not a rod builder but have had a chance to hold a piece of pre embargo cane. It was a lot heavier than some of the more current stuff I have seen. Letting it grow longer sounds right to me. The culm I saw had a far thicker layer of power fibers...noticeably so...I would imagine that they are the heaviest part of the culm.
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tim simbari		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 429 11/10/2009 00:06	JimP wrote: Makes me wonder if Pre-embargo cane is not denser because it was allowed to grow longer before harvesting. Any thoughts? JimP I have seen pre embargo and post embargo that was more and less dense relative to each other. I do not think you can generalize, at least I never saw that you could. I've seen old mature large diameter culms that were not particularly dense in fibers and newer stuff with very dense deep cells. It's a good question and comes into play when making all of these tremendous generalizations that tend to be made relative to hollow building, for instance. I have a neat little pile of cane sections/dubbing needles from a few makers, and it is quite educational when you look at the cross sections relative to cane density and power fiber layers. I can tell you lots of folks with certain opinions of rod weight/power/dampening/solid/hollow would rethink much of them. Last Edited By: tim simbari 11/10/2009 00:10. Edited 1 time.
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gmflyfish	Pre-Post Embargo Cane	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1242 11/10/2009 06:24	Glenn Brackett returned from China this spring after hand selecting the cane for Sweetgrass Rods. I asked the question many on the board asked about the quality of Pre embargo cane to today's cane. In Glenn's humble opinion the cane he is using today is better than the pre embargo cane he started with 40 plus years ago Gregg
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mer		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3271 11/10/2009 07:36	I wonder if the density of the power fiber layer is related to the speed of growth and the available nutrients? Keep in mind bamboo is a grass and will grow sort of like the grass in your yard (the green stuff that we all ignore during fishing season until the wife yells at us to cut it). Different fertilizers have different effects on plants, some promote root grow, some help leaf/fruit growth, some promote structural growth. That's what the 3 numbers on a bag of fertilizer mean. If you made it grow too tall too fast (too much water, too much growth fertilizer) would you wind up a perhaps deeps but not dense layer of power fibers? How about days of sunshine vs cloudy days? Just speculation. There is usually only a limited amount of damage that can be done by dull or stupid people. For creating a truly monumental disaster, you need people with high IQs.
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JimP.fishnbanjosplace		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 112 11/10/2009 08:05	I do know that todays rapidly growing pine tree designed to reach maturity faster for harvest is far less dense than yesterdays tree. I think they have been genetically altered but am not certain. JimP
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tiptop		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 632 11/10/2009 08:53	There doesn't seem to me to be enough info about the two rods in question. It would be good to know the actual weights and tapers, length of grip and reelseat, type of wood and hardware in the reelseat, weight of reels, uplocking or downlocking, etc. A rod can feel heavier or lighter than it really is depending on these factors.
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mer		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3273 11/10/2009 09:14	Genetically altered or just selectively planted? I think most lumber harvested today is farmed; I'd guess that the most are looking for the most board feet out of a tree as quick as possible. If you postulate harvesting a specific plot on a 5 year cycle, you'd pick trees that grow the biggest in the first 5 years. That gives you 5 years worth of seeds to use for future plantings. In trees, climate has a lot to do with the density of the wood, tighter growth rings, greater density. In years of optimum climate, they grow fast, with wide growth rings. Suboptimal, slower growth, tighter growth rings. Slower growth is the antithesis of "most board feet in 5 years of growth". It may be better wood, but the loggers and mills don't have time to wait. There is usually only a limited amount of damage that can be done by dull or stupid people. For creating a truly monumental disaster, you need people with high IQs.
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eastprong		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 488 11/10/2009 09:23	Aaron: Did your friend's 8-footer have a swelled butt? That can make a huge difference since the diameter of the swell is usually carried through under the cork and seat. If his wasn't swelled and yours was, that could explain the difference. --Rich
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recane1		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 272 11/10/2009 12:13	Both of the rods had a swelled butt. The hardware was close enough to the same. We both had J.W. Young reels that were the same size. the deferences that I am refering to are 6 inches of length, and an extra ferrule. Why was mine the heavy rod? Aaron
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aquabonito		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 12 11/10/2009 15:53	Good argument. My unqualified guess is that the more pith, the less weight, given the swelled butt issue is not an issue. You Can't Make New Old Friends Andy
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16 pmd		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 776 11/10/2009 16:35	Seems to me that the first thing to do is weigh them both on the same scale. That might help distinguish between heavy feel and heavy actual weight.
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Jim Lowe		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 559 11/10/2009 16:50	I'd agree with 16PMD and Tip Top. While the question posed is certainly an interesting one, not enough info has been given about the rods to blame the cane. Since the rods haven;t been weighed, I'm curious if one rod felt heavier when both were held at the balancing point or was it during casting.
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tim simbari		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 430 11/10/2009 19:44	mer wrote: I wonder if the density of the power fiber layer is related to the speed of growth and the available nutrients? Keep in mind bamboo is a grass and will grow sort of like the grass in your yard (the green stuff that we all ignore during fishing season until the wife yells at us to cut it). Different fertilizers have different effects on plants, some promote root grow, some help leaf/fruit growth, some promote structural growth. That's what the 3 numbers on a bag of fertilizer mean. If you made it grow too tall too fast (too much water, too much growth fertilizer) would you wind up a perhaps deeps but not dense layer of power fibers? How about days of sunshine vs cloudy days? Just speculation. You're not only ,IMHO, probably right but I'd probably add region, terrain, rainfall, mineral/soil issues, etc. I'd also suspect that older stuff probably was less than an excersise in the type of overall quality control coming out of the region today. A lot of that old Demerest stuff got really picked over and I've heard more than once "your milage could vary". If you think some of the west coast boys got the same shot at stuff that Jim Payne did on any given day, you better check to see what mom's putting in the brownies.
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oneculm		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 685 11/10/2009 20:27	Interesting Aaron very interesting. I looked up the tapers for the rod you were using and a Heddon 8' with a 1 1/2 ferr. that might be the rod your friend was using. The 8' rod is on average .020 smaller through out the tip and remains smaller thru most of the rest of the rod.Both have a swelled butt and the 7 1/2 is much larger also thru this area. Maybe your friend meant that there was just plain more bamboo in your rod and used the word dense to describe it. That is a large difference in overall size and I think it would explain the weight difference.
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recane1		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 273 11/11/2009 08:05	Thank you Dave, that clears things up quite well for me. Next time I will do my homework before speculating. That rod that my friend had sure was nice. I might ask him to make one for me. The problem is, that I want the rod for all the wrong reasons. that may be good for another topic under the collecting heading. Aaron
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thegubster		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1745 11/11/2009 15:30	recane1 wrote: Thank you Dave, that clears things up quite well for me. Next time I will do my homework before speculating. That rod that my friend had sure was nice. I might ask him to make one for me. The problem is, that I want the rod for all the wrong reasons. that may be good for another topic under the collecting heading. Aaron Aaron, Please let me in on your last sentence. I don't want to create a lengthy go-around that takes away from you post but I'd like to offer this parallel. Some time back I needed new jeans so I went and bought a few diff. pairs to wear around work and for casual. One "special" pair of pants just felt SO comfy and right that I decided to "save 'em" for special occasions. They went to the back of the closet. Just for special occasions now.. I have a habit of forgetting stuff and when I began to wear those other pants out (I'd worn them to some casual outings too) I grinned to myself when I pulled my "favorite pair" off the hanger. When I went to pull them up...guess what....I was older by a couple yrs. and they....DIDN'T.....fit! I couldn't get into 'em. 'Nuff said. Jeremy. Last Edited By: thegubster 11/11/2009 15:33. Edited 1 time.
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recane1		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 274 11/11/2009 16:38	That's funny stuff Jeremy. This is the thing, I have plenty of nice classsic and contempery rods. All of them get fished from time to time with the exceptions of the ones that are in need of repair. I really don't NEED another rod. I have all of the lengths and weights that I could possibly ever need. Now, what I WANT is another story. The only reason that I can think of that I want this particular rod is just to say that I have it. That seems like a pretty stupid reason to drop a grand. Sure, it will get fished and it will look great on the old rod rack and I will have something to brag about but maybe, just maybe I already have enough rods. Aaron
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oneculm		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 688 11/11/2009 16:49	YOU HAVE ENOUGH RODS!!!!!!!!!!! Your friend
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non argumentative post, just thoughts

non argumentative post, just thoughts