Looking at some of the worked over reels over the last couple of years, it got me thinking. Instead of perpetrating fraud on unsuspecting buyers, why not sell
it as a value-added option to someone who likes the looks? But I realized I have NO CLUE how much work is involved. Do you have to remove the agate LG? How
would an acid bath affect the delicate springs or tension screw? I know you don't have to remove the foot because both the aluminium and brass feet survive
just fine...they just turn out much shinier than one would expect from a 50+ year old reel. Anyone have a guess? Or intentionally done this to a reel (or
something else painted) that you already owned at a machine shop or something? I never cared for the 2-screw painted finish...a clean metal look is much
preferable. Thanks, C
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Acid wash a 2-screw 3" St. George: how much $, how much damage?
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 cdmoore |
Acid wash a 2-screw 3" St. George: how much $, how much damage? |
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Posts: 3132 11/19/2009 22:53 Moderator |
"If you finish in 7 days, I'll pay you for 10. If you finish in 10 days, I'll pay you for 7." ~Ballykissangel
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 oddsnrods |
#1 | |||
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Posts: 251 11/19/2009 23:10 |
Acid for hire eh ??
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cdmoore |
How else... | #2 | ||
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Posts: 3133 11/19/2009 23:54 Moderator |
...am I going to afford the real thing?
"If you finish in 7 days, I'll pay you for 10. If you finish in 10 days, I'll pay you for 7." ~Ballykissangel
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FWdB |
#3 | |||
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Posts: 636 11/20/2009 07:39 |
I wouldn't know how to do it, but I think you should be very careful with the handle. The rest of the reel might be all metals, but still I'd not know what acid / acidity to safely use, and how long to soak it. In my experience paint thinner works surprisingly easy on enamel. When I tried it on the inside of a Perfect spool (removing some molten plastic line residue) the finish just lifted and flaked off. Wilfred
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Ray Hencken |
Acid wash | #4 | ||
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Posts: 203 11/20/2009 08:52 |
I wouldn't use acid to remove the finish, it might affect the metal parts of the reel. Instead try something like Formby's refinishing solution, paint
thinner, or a similiar product with 0000 steel wool to help remove the paint. Wear rubber gloves. The solution will affect the paint but not the metal. Read
carefully the directions, the solution is flammable and you don't want to inhale the vapor. It is best to work with these products in a well ventilated
area or outdoors. I tried it on an LRH that had a bad finish and was happy with the results.
It's probably best to try the method out on a beater reel in order to determine if the method is satisfactory. |
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cdmoore |
Ah! Paint thinner! | #5 | ||
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Posts: 3134 11/20/2009 11:36 Moderator |
So cheap, yet adds so much value!
Won't this bare metal start pitting or corroding after awhile? Not quite the same thing as clear or silver anodizing or the paper and lacquer finish from back in the day. Did you guys re-lacquer it (and what did you use)? Put some kind of polish or wax on it to protect it? Or ??? So, to put the question again...how much would you expect to pay for a service like this? Kind of messy. Disposal (I hope) fee if done on a regular basis. Must be some time spent digging it out of the corners, tight spots, and low relief areas. Then a good amount of time drying and washing and maybe even polishing. I imagine at least $100? Or maybe a percentage of the pre-removal value, maybe 20%? Or do you think it is a wash after taking the finish off of an original? C
"If you finish in 7 days, I'll pay you for 10. If you finish in 10 days, I'll pay you for 7." ~Ballykissangel
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bow river |
#6 | |||
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Posts: 1777 11/20/2009 12:25 |
chis
why don't you contact the ones who sell all the fakes on the devils site and ask them how they do it so good , someone did a post awhile ago on a 3 inch st george reel he done up and it turned out good ,he posted pictures also on this page , also way back i think a couple years , a member did a post of a bougle repro reel that was acid washed and it looked like a reel from the 20's when it was done alot of the finish is being removed by light sand blasters , i have heard that they are now useing the new blaster that the dentist have for cleaning your teeth , the dentist machine don't round out the lettering on the stamping , easy to fool people again the old way chris was just sandpaper and steelwool , the reels would tarnish or pit after time so some would even put a coat of lacquer or varnish over the whole reel , wasn't the best job and you could tell it was faked up '''' the so called spitfire reel'' now these days with the reels i have seen , they have it down pat on how to do it good and can fool just about anyone , i also understand what your saying , yes a beat up st george with the finish peeling or chiped away looks ugly , and yes it would look alot better in the ''spitfire finish'' or all the finish removed , and it will bring the value up for you if your going to sell it , they seem to go crazy for them on the devils site and it's crazy what they fetch in money , i'm looking forward to seeing your reel when done , if good i'll buy some junkers and send them to you , i can see you cornering the market already chris , next you'll need your own stamp punch , LOL ' now thats funny ' CDM , you should also add a SR for spitfire reel
Rich
For vintage fly reels & bamboo rods , guided float trips on canada's # 1 best trout river , i have a special for our bamboo forum members www.bowriveradventures.com
Last Edited By: bow river 11/20/2009 17:00.
Edited 1 time.
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cdmoore |
Wilf, btw that reel looks really nice | #7 | ||
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Posts: 3135 11/20/2009 12:48 Moderator |
I actually think it looks stellar. Question since I've never handled one with the finish removed. My Bougle Lightweight 3 has a silver gray matte finish
on the spool that is barely reflective. How reflective is the finish on your reel, Wilf?
"If you finish in 7 days, I'll pay you for 10. If you finish in 10 days, I'll pay you for 7." ~Ballykissangel
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mer |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 3303 11/20/2009 16:21 |
Chris, I'd say not very. Look at the highlights on the spool compared to the highlights on the reel seat bands and the edge of the line guard. Think
"brushed nickel plate" instead of "polished stainless steel" (sorry, been doing too much catching up on house stuff and looking at kitchen
sinks and faucets)
Just my opinions, as stated previously if one disagrees or thinks I'm FOS, then just ignore anything I have to say...
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cdmoore |
Mer...been there...STILL doing that! | #9 | ||
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Posts: 3136 11/20/2009 16:29 Moderator |
I guess it's a good problem to have, though, eh? :-)
Best to you and yours!
"If you finish in 7 days, I'll pay you for 10. If you finish in 10 days, I'll pay you for 7." ~Ballykissangel
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kimk |
#10 | |||
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Posts: 700 11/20/2009 20:38 |
The plastic winding knob might present some problems but the rest of the reel can be easily stripped with the chemicals used by the aircraft industry. Aircraft
are made of many different alloys of aluminum, stainless and iron. I would suspect that if these chemicals are safe to use on aircraft metals, they would be
safe on reel metals. Some of these chemicals are quite aggressive on paint though and are used to strip Imron and epoxies. The advantage of chemical stripping
is that it strips finish out of all the little corners and seams.
AgMD |
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upstream2 |
Dispelling the myth and creating a new one... | #11 | ||
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Posts: 3 11/20/2009 21:01 |
Offtopic as always from a long time lurker... Ladies and Gentlemen, Reading this forum has saved me a lot of money. Due to your efforts, I haven't been s*itfired yet. Sadly or not, it is obvious that in many cases polished reels still fetch regularly better prices than their original painted or leaded counterparts. For example, I bought a polished (advertised as such) 2-screw 50'ies St George 3 3/8" reel from a very honest seller from the Mr D's playground and I got it at very low price. The s-word wasn't even mentioned. Almost similar so called spitfire reels have been sold at least for double that price since. I agree that a polished reel might look better than one with peeled finish.
Ladies and gentlemen, take this revisionist s*itfired reelbah with a grain of salt:
It is a well known fact, that most of the older Hardy reels, especially St Georges and Perfects were originally produced "in white", i.e. non-leaded or painted. However, to this very day, only a very few people have been aware of the so called "Junkers finished" reels as pointed out by bow river: Bow river wrote: "i also understand what your saying , yes a beat up st george with the finish peeling or chiped away looks ugly , and yes it would look alot better in
the ''spitfire finish'' or all the finish removed , and it will bring the value up for you if your going to sell it , they seem to go crazy for
them on the devils site and it's crazy what they fetch in money.
Junkers or sometimes called as Stuka or Messershcmitt finish was based on a very secret deal between the Hardy developement unit and the German RLM (The German air ministry). In early August 1938 - before the WW2 began - the German RLM asked Hardy Bros to produce some of their reels in RLM 66 Dunkelgrau finish - similar to that tone they used in their warplanes' interior just a couple of years later. Shortly after -just before the WW2 began -, an enormous order was made by the German government via this agreement and especially the 3" and 2 9/16" St Georges were produced both in leaded and painted versions en masse in RLM 66 with or without J. S. stamps. However, shortly after the WW 2 began, the Hardy folks soon realized that the swastika was not going to be the winner. Soon they decided to polish all of their reels in order to celebrate their win over the Battle of Britain: This is the true historical background for the spitfire finish. Therefore you can bid with confidence on any clear finished St George reel, since they are all original or refurbished by the maker. Let me clarify: these were only made or refurbished by the maker Hardy Brothers. However, there is still some uncertainty: Why did the Hardy Bros decide to produce some of their St George reels in RLM 66 colour up to 1983? These painted reels are going to be very sought after due to their dark gray/dunkelgrau finish. Interestingly, most of these reels have turned out to be fakes with their so called "Junkers" finishes. If in doubt, only consider the clear finished ones as originals. Buyer beware!
Sorry, but I couldn't resist this offtopic nonsense...
Sami |
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cregb |
#12 | |||
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Posts: 66 11/20/2009 21:12 |
I would agree with kimk. I work as a coatings chemist and a chemical(read "solvent") soak would likely strip away the finish without etching or
pitting the metal (Bulldog would have the more definitive answer on the effects of anything on metal for sure). One would need to consider the composition of
the handle, which many have called xylonite or plasticized cellulose nitrate. Nitrocellulose is soluble in many solvents but aromatic hydrocarbons like
toluene, xylene may dissolve the finish while not altering the handle(of course a spot test is the ultimate judge for effect). A quick search suggests
that esters or ketone solvents are to be avoided for the handle (MEK, acetone, butyl acetate, etc.). One great solvent for stripping paint is N-methyl
pyrrolidone (aka M-Pyrol or NMP) but I am not sure on it's effect on the nitrocellulose handle material. Also, NMP is water soluble so a water rinse
afterward would remove any residual solvent remaining on the reel.
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oddsnrods |
A dubious thread I venture... | #13 | ||
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Posts: 252 11/20/2009 23:14 |
In as much as posting methods of how to 'alter the balance of things' as Drewett referred to the polishing of Hardy reels,in his tome. I say it
again... the cast and blackleaded/ painted Hardy reels were made of 'dirty' alloys of unknown provinence. The clear finished ones were made ( I
venture) using surplus Hiduminuim/ Duraluminum and maybe even Monel metals. These are very pure alloys needing no lacquer coat to preserve their finish. The
metals feel oily/slippery to the touch. Any scallywag can shine up a 'dirty' to fool the unwary in the short term, they (the reels) will then soon
revert to their dull/dirty default appearance before too long. To polish up a reel of one's own is one thing. Looking to create (possible) profit from
others by polishing up their reels could be, in my opinion, seen as the act of a profiteering cad and a bounder.
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kimk |
#14 | |||
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Posts: 701 11/20/2009 23:49 |
One of the sources for aircraft stripper is Aircraft Spruce http://www.aircraftspruce...us/cs/paintremovers.html
I am told that anything used on aircraft must not harm the metals even if it seeps into the seams and behind rivets and is never flushed or neutralized. Corrosion in aircraft is a serious concern and like anything else used in the aircraft industry, this stuff has to be tested and certified six ways to Sunday. Another question is what sort of surface is under the paint. Aircraft aluminum is often given an acid etch before priming. A surface prepped for maximum paint adhesion is not usually the same sort of finish you would choose for a bare metal reel. Which may raise the need for buffing or polishing which might be hard to do with hardware in place. An interesting experiment nonetheless. Short of custom engraving --- which is either really bad or really expensive--- there are not too many ways to pimp your reel. AgMD |
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bow river |
#15 | |||
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Posts: 1779 11/20/2009 23:58 |
upstream2
wrote Let me clarify: these were only made or refurbished by the maker Hardy Brothers. now that is what i call , one good big yarn , is your nose growing longer , oh tell us just where have you been , with 3 posts only and you now come along to tell all us them reels with no finish left on them are all correct and only refurbished by the hardy brothers themselves , very interresting upstream , i wish i would of known that as i would never have passed them all by , i think i'll go with what oddsrods says , just seems a little better of a story
Rich
For vintage fly reels & bamboo rods , guided float trips on canada's # 1 best trout river , i have a special for our bamboo forum members www.bowriveradventures.com
Last Edited By: bow river 11/21/2009 00:08.
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speyrod |
how to spitfire a reel | #16 | ||
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Posts: 21 11/21/2009 00:45 |
The best way is to have a plating shop strip the reel with a soda blaster, this is like a sand blaster ,but uses bakeing soda as the polishing media. The soft bakeing soda just attacks the thin finish or plating, then you polish the reel with a product called Metall, this is what a major airplane manufacturer uses on it's non painted planes to protect them from the elements, Of course what you do with the reel after you have done this is up to the individual.I personally don't buy and sell reels to try and make a profit ,I fish all the reels I have come across so It doesn't matter to me if its original or not, its all about the price for me! |
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FWdB |
#17 | |||
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Posts: 637 11/21/2009 05:47 |
To answer a few questions about my reel. Finish is 100% NOT original of course. It's quite shiny, although not "bare metal" shiny and it's
been more trouble to capture on a picture than in any fishing situation. It's being used frequently, and I haven't seen any sign of the metal
deteriorating. Bought it because until the new Heritage series came along, a LHW St.G was a rare thing and "good" examples were way above my budget.
This reel looks great "spitfired" (imo), many others don't. I intend to purchase a LHW 3 inch spitfire St.G reissue as soon as they become
available. Will make an interesting comparison, and that one will also be used as much as possible.
Wilfred
Last Edited By: FWdB 11/21/2009 05:58.
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afgantrout |
#18 | |||
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Posts: 720 11/23/2009 02:35 |
Wilfred, I own a couple of very 'collectible' Perfects that are in right hand mode and I love them because they have the essence of age and are lovely
to the touch. However, I'm going to hold on to them...fish them when I want to, but I am looking forward to the day (soon) when I have a true LHW Perfect
which I can use at will. Your LHW St George is lovely. I owned a 3 1/8" Perfect w/ line guard that I enjoyed immensely. It had a shitty enamelled
finish that was less than attractive and I had a gunsmith friend sandblast it and it became a reel that I enjoyed using. I only traded it for a LHW Dingley
Perfect...(had to throw in an extra spool and some dollars, too).
I think your stripped St. George is very handsome (only lacking a third screw on the release catch!). It is beautiful and I hope the elements will give it a bit of patina over time. I don't think the new Bougle's will ever benefit from the elements.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # #
Petri heil! Kindly take a look at my angling art (and classic ephemera) www.michaelsimonanglingart.com |
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Northumberland |
Achtung Spitfire | #19 | ||
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Posts: 86 11/23/2009 05:00 |
There is one guy on tebay who sells quite a few spitfires. I send him a message every now and then asking how he does it to wind him up. I never get a reply.
Does no one else challenge some of these crooks selling polished up reels. I think everyone should as he gets good prices for them and someone is being taken
to the cleaners.
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enigma309 |
Magpie syndrome | #20 | ||
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Posts: 911 11/23/2009 07:51 Moderator |
Steve, I send the same guy a message occasionally as do one or two others. Never get a reply.
There are a couple of other similar sellers/dealers. They either blank questions or adopt the 'ignorance' approach - "Oh, that's the way I got the reel" or that old stalwart "I'm selling it for a friends widow . . " They know that, somewhere out there, there are boys who buy shiny things As long as forums like this highlight the "Spitfire" thing occasionally, so that it is searchable, anyone carrying out a little research (due diligence?) can then make their own minds up |
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