So what do you do???

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mer		#41	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3310 11/23/2009 07:02	One of the problems is that most of the rodmakers I've had the pleasure (and frustration) to know would rather be building rods or fishing than answering phones, answering email, defending themselves on the web. Out of all the horror stories we've heard about rodmakers, in how many of them do we have the rodmakers side of the story? My wife works retail, so I've gotten 20 years worth of customer from hell stories, customers that just would not be satisfied no matter what Just my opinions, as stated previously if one disagrees or thinks I'm FOS, then just ignore anything I have to say...
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rlnunleycom		#42	[url]	[-]
Posts: 581 11/23/2009 09:44	bigriver wrote: ...and I get that we're not supposed to throw anyone under the bus on this forum, that there are two sides to every story, but my business classes taught me the 'customer is always right' I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with the concept that the customer is always right. Take this instance... A customer orders a rod, waits nearly a year for it. He gets the rod and emails the rodmaker pictures of fish he's caught with it... not A picture, but SEVERAL pictures... so many pictures that the rodmaker gets tired of getting pictures on email. In addition to that, offers to write a testimonial for the rodmaker's website and brochures. Quite an impressive testimonial at that. So, time goes on. One year passes then the customer contacts the rodmaker and says that he just doesn't like the way the rod "feels" and that he thinks he should get a full refund. The rodmaker nearly laughs at him on the phone, but holds his composure. Then the guy says that the rod has never been fished, and that, as a matter of fact, it has never even been lawn cast. While this conversation is going on, the rodmaker is on his website looking at pictures of this customer with that rod, on the river, posing with a rainbow. Needless to say, the customer did NOT get his full refund and he spent a fair amount of time trashing the rodmaker on the internet. Thank goodness that, back then, the internet wasn't as widespread as it is now. Had it been, this customer could have severely damaged this rodmakers reputation, all the while being a LYING S.O.B. Was that customer right? Hell, no!!! He wasn't even close!!! By the way, that was one of my customers about 12 or 14 years ago and I was the rodmaker. We, as rodmakers, have another quandry. Do we rush and put out a peice of junk with marginal or substandard cosmetics, or do we work on something, be it repair or new rod, until we get it right. Well, if we rush, then we get trashed as "wannabee rodmakers" that do really substandard work... on the other hand, if we take our time, then we didn't get the rod out fast enough for the customer, so we're dragging our asses. Now, I don't do long waiting lists. I would rather work 60 or 70 hours a week and get rods out in a few months than work 10 or 15 hours a week and have a 2 to 5 year waiting list, but many rodmakers don't have the advantage of being able to do this full time. And to be honest, most of the ones I know that do it full time... well, they aren't puppies anymore and can't do a 60 to 70 hour week. And if you don't believe that me (and other rodmakers) work that many hours a week, ask Harry Boyd... he knows my shop hours... ask my wife and kids... come by my shop at 4 AM and keep me company, offer to make a cup of coffee. yep, I've already been there this morning and am now back at the house to get more coffee for the shop. I was there yesterday working on 3 different rod repairs that I need to get out this week, which is the week that my wife is having her final surgery over the breast cancer ordeal, btw, but that doesn't make any difference... I'll take surgery day off, or part of it, but I'll still work a good 50 hours this week. I do it because I like it and because I want to get the work out the door AND because I have customers who expect their work to be done soon and I definitely plan to get it out to them SOON. I want to get it out at a reasonable pace and get it done as closely to perfect as I can. That doesn't mean that I'm going to do a restoration in 3 or 4 weeks. Sorry, just ain't happening. GOOD work takes time. I would say time costs money, but hey, you guys know that rodmakers could probably make more money flipping hamburgers at McDonalds than they can making rods, but we do this because we love it and because we're addicted to it. Rodmaking is part of who we are. Expect things in a reasonable time, but if you want top quality work, do not expect it FAST!!! Again, good work takes time. MOST customers understand that, and they want great work, not average or mediocre work. These guys I cherish as customer and am glad when I see their number pop up on Caller ID on the phone. But not everyone is easy to deal with, and the guy that I spoke about above, well, he wasn't easy to deal with at all. Neither is the guy who orders a rod, then about the time you get the blank cut, changes his mind and wants a different rod, then a different one. Changing his mind 4 times before you finally tell him "Sorry, but I've started on your rod 3 times already and you're going to have to commit to one of these rods!!!". Neither is the guy who spends months trying to tell YOU how to make a rod, then, you listen to him, do what he wants, then he is mad at you because he isn't happy with the rod that HE wanted and that HE instructed you to make. (I don't do that anymore... someone wants to tell me how to make a rod, I give them Harry Boyd's phone number!!! ) There are plenty like that, and I can guarantee you that every rodmaker that's produced a large number of rods over a long period of time has had customers like this one. I've had about half a dozen, and I've been hung out on about a dozen rods in 21 years... but the rest of the bamboo community has been a pleasure to deal with. Both rod makers and customers have usually held themselves to a very high standard. OK, I'm off my soapbox and heading back to the shop. This coffee run took way longer than I planned on. Bob RL "Bob" Nunley, Rodmaker Ozark Rodmaking School My Book, The Snake Rod
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Boo.fiberglassflyro...		#43	[url]	[-]
Posts: 240 11/23/2009 12:09	Mr. Nunley your story about the buyer wanting a new rod after pics and several years is on the fringe. He is plainly nuts. But, you lost no money and/or rod. All you had to do is say "no" to a crazy person. What most everyone else here is the discussing is loss of money and/or rod + trust/respect from certain rod makers. Most of us work hard [if working at all these days] and many have families, bills to pay, and plain 'ol stress all around. Some, such as myself, may have saved for months if not years to splurge on one new rod that they may never afford again...it's a one-time shot. So, for some arrogant a$$hole rod builder to promise a rod in order to take someone's hard earned money and not to deliver is bs! I don't buy someone avoiding emails, phone calls etc. If a buyer is harassing the maker the maker should kindly but firmly let the buyer know. If there's a family issue the maker should let the buyer know there's a personal problem and the rod may be late. As I stated earlier the rod maker is in the driver's seat. He gets a down payment, if not paid in full. He doesn't get rid of the rod until paid in full. If he doesn't get paid in full the rod maker still has the rod+deposit...and still he will eventually sell it to someone else. On the other hand with the type of rod maker being discussed the buyer is often out of money and rod. And the rod maker still keeps his otherwise lilly white reputation because he can't be discussed on a public forum.
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mer		#44	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3312 11/23/2009 12:33	"...Needless to say, the customer did NOT get his full refund and he spent a fair amount of time trashing the rodmaker on the internet. Thank goodness that, back then, the internet wasn't as widespread as it is now. Had it been, this customer could have severely damaged this rodmakers reputation, all the while being a LYING S.O.B. " Boo, Bob may not have lost money or that rod, but the bit I've cut and pasted is pertinent to this discussion, how the forum fits in and what the forum rules mean. "Thank goodness that back then the internet wasn't as widespread as it is now". Suppose these events had happened yesterday and the customer had started trashing Bob at 0300 "Bob's a cheat, won't refund money for an obviously defective rod that wasn't anything like I ordered". How far do you think it would have spread by 0800? How many members do we have on here now? Sure seems like Bob had the potential to lose quite a bit in future sales, all without him having the chance to defend himself. Do you think that's fair to Bob or any other rodmaker, gunsmith, pizza maker, or local cabinet maker? Does it make sense that Bob would be pretty pissed off at the forum for allowing an unsubstantiated rumor to be propagated and may start or threaten legal action? At least 2 times that I am aware of something like that has happened here. Both times it was the straw breaking the camels back and we, the community, almost lost this forum. Now, the rules are what they are. If one doesn't like them, talk directly to the owners of the forum about changing them. They may listen, they may not, but publicly castigating the owners for clearly stated rules because one disagrees with them, certainly starts to sound like whining. To the best of my knowledge there is nothing standing in the way of anyone here starting up their own forum, the "Unethical Rodmakers List" and naming names and detailing details. You want to, go right ahead. But to try and force this forum to change to an agenda, is not the right way to go about it. Just my opinions, as stated previously if one disagrees or thinks I'm FOS, then just ignore anything I have to say...
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Boo.fiberglassflyro...		#45	[url]	[-]
Posts: 241 11/23/2009 12:42	No one is talking about changing the rules. I just commented on the way it is, and that's fine. The ORIGINAL discussion is about buyer's getting the shaft. Let's not hijack it and make it about maker's getting the shaft. That should be another thread, imo. In the mean time these particular rod makers "keep on". Last Edited By: Boo 11/23/2009 12:48. Edited 1 time.
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AJ Bamboo		#46	[url]	[-]
Posts: 870 11/23/2009 18:49	You been reading my mail Bob? heh heh. Seriously though, it was like reading my biography. I simply build slower now than i once did, less than half of what i did 10 years ago. Age, eyes and arthritis are taking their toll. Same hours as Bob though, just fewer rods these days. Don't deal with many of the last generation of builders, never cared about anything but my own idea of a fly rod and i have always thought that attributing your skill to your supposed training by one of the 'masters' was , in the end, nothing more a silly marketing ploy. There are several of the last gen makers who have earned MY respect for their work and business ethics. I am sure Bob would have added that the VAST majority of his (and my) customers are gracious and understaning. My educated guess would be that is because they know that Bob is trying to supply the best rod possible. That is why the occasional flyer is such a surprise. It doesn't happen often enough for us to be wary. Boo, when was the last time you saw a post on this board about customer XXX and his bad behavior by a maker? Might be one but i have never seen it. These types of discussion ALWAYS degenerate into back-board trading of names of supposed 'bad' builders. The vilest form of hearsay libel are traded without a thought as to the entire circumstance. Having heard both sides of several of the dust-ups i came to the conclusion that the builder had tried to satisfy but were presented with an impossible set of demands. all three have led to the loss of the builder from any participation in this forum, a loss to us all. Upon comparing names we would find that we each had the same experience with that buyer. Are there prima-donna dilettante makers out their charging three times what their rods are worth? absolutely. Are there some who, being so impressed with their own self created credentials, that they feel free to abuse their customers(and brag about it at times)? you betcha there are. Are their some who have not finished a dozen rods selling their wares as if they have 200 behind them? Yip, some OK and some talentless. There are also many of us who are full time and provide for our families in a modest way. The best ones i know always fall into a certain group that self describe them self as craftsmen first, often have been working outside of the mainstream of the working world most of our life, are control freaks who don't allow anyone else to participate in any step of the rods construction, and are often so independent as to be somewhat difficult from time to time. Geegads this coffee run has gone overtime also hasn't it Bob?
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Boo.fiberglassflyro...		#47	[url]	[-]
Posts: 242 11/23/2009 19:13	AJ Bamboo wrote: Boo, when was the last time you saw a post on this board about customer XXX and his bad behavior by a maker? Might be one but i have never seen it. These types of discussion ALWAYS degenerate into back-board trading of names of supposed 'bad' builders. The vilest form of hearsay libel are traded without a thought as to the entire circumstance. Having heard both sides of several of the dust-ups i came to the conclusion that the builder had tried to satisfy but were presented with an impossible set of demands. all three have led to the loss of the builder from any participation in this forum, a loss to us all. Upon comparing names we would find that we each had the same experience with that buyer. AJ, I see at least one or more every time theses discussions come up.
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AJ Bamboo		#48	[url]	[-]
Posts: 871 11/23/2009 20:14	then i stand corrected Boo
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cwfly		#49	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1198 11/23/2009 21:47	The buyer may not always be right but I'm sorry but I have to add one fact. A fellow I know, since I work with him, has fished for years and has a pretty nice group of s/s's and bamboo rods. Some from the early 1900's, some later. He knows his shotguns and his rods. Some years ago, when he was much younger, he attended a fly fishing show and had a chance to talk with a very well known maker of bamboo rods. They talked and after a bit the very well known maker was to make two rods. He wrote it down and took a cash deposit. This, BTW, is pre email, and pre-receipt - it was a matter of trust. A year or more went by - nothing. A few telephone calls met by I'll look into it and get back to you. So, my colleague has a final call. You know the one, like what the h** is going on and where is my money. Sorry, he is told, but I have no record of you ordering anything or giving me any deposit and I'm not giving you any money back. After a somewhat heated exchange, my friend wrote it off as bad business with a dishonest jerk. This was a "bigshot" rod maker, at least the maker and some other people have thought so, and not a small amount of money was lost at the time by the person who gave it to him. And no, I will not answer PM's about who it was. But, I can assure you that I will never buy a rod he ever claimed to make.
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billg71		#50	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4 11/23/2009 22:27	Wow guys, I really didn't mean to start a shitstorm over this, I just wanted some advice..... It's sad to see how many others have been screwed over on both sides. But, as I said, I run a small business and that's part of the risk/reward scenario. I make a lot more money(or used to, anyway) than I would working for someone and the possibility of getting stiffed is always there, a small but not insignificant part of the cost of doing business. I'm a Libra, I know all about the "two sides to every story" thing, and both makers I dealt with have had significant personal issues in their lives since I placed my orders. I've tried to take this into account, not pestering them when I know they have more important issues to deal with. But, despite their issues, they seem to be able to turn out rods for others who maybe weren't so considerate of their situations. My position is that they took my deposit, I'm at a certain place in their order list, I should hear from them when they've finished my order, in a time frame reasonably close to what they promised and wrote down. I did get an email reply from one of the makers I mentioned: "After several attempts to get you and three broken appointments by you that kept me waiting on you on weekends your rod was sold and your name moved to the bottom of the list to be filled.I just figured that economics kept you from taking delivery.I will build you another if you wish for delivery in 45 days.However no deposits will be returned." In fact, I have never received any calls or correspondence from him except in response to my own calls or emails and I certainly have never made an appointment with him at anytime after the rod was ordered. If he has any proof, he can bring it to court as he's relatively local and the next time he hears from me it'll be via a process server. And frankly, I'd die and roast in Hell before I'd even pick up one of his rods, much less give him any more of my money for one. I have received no reply from the other maker, unfortunately he's nowhere near local so I guess he has my thousand bucks and I'm boned. "Screwed, glued and tattooed" is the term, IIRC. Shame on me, I guess, for trusting someone who's been well-known in the business for literally decades.... And it's NOT AJ or Bob Sumner or Glen Brackett, in case you're wondering. oneculm posted: "As I have learned this is not where it will get settled so move on. " and I agree. I used to be a member here before the forum went toYuku, as did at least one of the makers I have a problem with. So I thank all of you for your advice, sympathy and observations. As AJ said, "Boo, when was the last time you saw a post on this board about customer XXX and his bad behavior by a maker? Might be one but i have never seen it. These types of discussion ALWAYS degenerate into back-board trading of names of supposed 'bad' builders. The vilest form of hearsay libel are traded without a thought as to the entire circumstance. Having heard both sides of several of the dust-ups i came to the conclusion that the builder had tried to satisfy but were presented with an impossible set of demands. all three have led to the loss of the builder from any participation in this forum, a loss to us all. Upon comparing names we would find that we each had the same experience with that buyer.". I don't feel I've been THAT kind of customer but, nonetheless, I understand where he's coming from and I won't be involved in any "back-board trading of names...". I haven't been here in a long time, but it's a personal thing with me to respect the rules of whatever forum I choose to participate in. To those of you who've contacted me by PM, I'm really, really sorry I can't name names but, as I said, the rules is the rules and I'm going to stick by them. Honestly, it really hurts me not to be able to maybe help you out, especially those of you who are about to place orders with significant deposits. Call it one of the many sins of omission I'll have to answer for someday, but that's something I'll have to deal with when the time comes. All in all, you're no worse off than if I'd never posted anything here in the first place, so trust your instincts. My advice to you is to get a written contract with all terms stated up front before any money changes hands. Unless you're ordering something REALLY special, anything more than a 10% deposit puts you at significant risk. If a rodmaker can't afford to buy materials for your rod, it's your call but, with all due respect to the makers out there, it doesn't speak well of his business acumen. Document ALL contact with the maker, whether it be by notes on a phone call or, preferably, emails and print them as you get them. If you don't hear or get delivery as promised, send certified letters and demand satisfaction one way or the other within a specified time frame. Most importantly, DON'T let this drag out like I did, the longer you let it go on the weaker your case will appear in the eyes of the law, at least that's what my lawyer tells me. With that said, I'm respectfully asking the moderators to lock this thread. I've followed it daily, read your advice and suggestions, and I feel it's about to outlive its productive lifespan and degenerate into something that's not good for the forum. I haven't been here in a good while, when I was an active member it was as a babe in the woods when it came to bamboo rods, but I lurked and learned and I'll always be thankful to all of you for your contributions that helped me to learn about and love my cane poles. So I really don't want to be responsible for anything that might negatively impact this wonderful group.... Thanks for all the help, now I'm going to get my 7-1/2' Black Beauty out, dust it off and get it ready to go fishing for the first time in 4 years! Thanks, Bill "standing in a river waving a stick" 1975 D-35/000-28EC/000-28ECB/Felix LM/Felix II LM/000-ECHF Belleza Nera/000- ECHF Bellaza Bianca/D-45 Mike Longworth/HD-35 Nancy Wilson/ Gallagher Doc Watson 12-fret/Taylor 810CE-30LE/'56 NOS Strat, Felix GC Custom LM
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PYochim		#51	[url]	[-]
Posts: 979 11/23/2009 23:16	I hate to break the news, but the customer isn't always right. In a transaction like this there are obligations and responsibilities for both sides to uphold. In my profession, it seems that customer satisfaction relates not to a good outcome but to pre-conceived notions and unreasonable requests being catered to. Something tells me that rod making isn't much different.
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