RESTOCKING FEES?

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teter	RESTOCKING FEES?		Lead	[-]
Posts: 1416 09/17/2009 00:45	Tags : None Come on, you guys. You've got to be pulling my leg. "Restocking fees" for returned rods and reels? As my old-timer Brooklyn neighbors say, Fugghedabout it. Restocking fees are what I pay to the fish and game folks. More and more, I am encountering this policy. We have come a long way since "The customer is always right." I just did battle with one big tackle emporium over a reel that was "delivered" to my front porch. In New York City. Guess what happened to it? The sales representative did not seem to share my view that his company, and not I, should absorb the costs of the shipping company's mistake. Over the last 40 plus years, I have purchased hundreds of rods and reels, new and old, from all sources. I think I have returned about 10 rods, maybe a couple of those because I just didn't like their action or feel. The rest were for actual defects or damage or missrepresentation (talking here about that well-known auction site). I can't remember returning any reels. I realize that the world is liberally sprinkled with wackjobs and crooks, on both the buying and selling end of the commercial spectrum, but please don't penalize me for their sins. The idea of a surcharge for dissatisfaction is more than I can abide. Last Edited By: teter 09/17/2009 00:52. Edited 1 time.
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oldschoolcane		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 119 09/17/2009 10:50	Teter, for what it's worth - I agree with you. Tim
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cross creek one		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 428 09/17/2009 11:11	Unfortunately for those of us who are honest and care enough to handle fine tackle (at least the tackle we just bought) with utmost care, I suspect many dealers often have to sell even brand new returned merchandise at a loss because of scratches, lost paperwork, torn boxes, soiled grips, and worse. "Restocking fees" might cover some of those losses. As far as shipping services go, each one has their own policy regarding whether the sender or recipient must fight it out with them over lost/damaged packages. In some cases, the sender isn't even allowed to get involved in that battle. What bugs me immensely is that, if you mail something that never arrives, USPS will not refund the postage, and insurance doesn't cover it. Seems like a refund for services not rendered ought to be automatic! -CC PS, UPS once delivered a small package I was expecting to a house down the street--where the owners were part-time residents. They wouldn't even ask the driver what house he left it at. The company sent me another item, and the homeowners brought me my package--four months later!
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Ben Kann	Restocking -- Up yours!	#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 227 09/17/2009 14:36	I have a simple policy about "restocking fees": If a company lists their merchandise as such, I don't buy from them--and I write their sales dept to let them know about it. If enough of us did the same, And I'm pretty sure we'd see some policy changes. Ben
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rckdr		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 66 09/17/2009 21:50	The smaller dealers have given me a good explanation for restocking fees. When an item is charged on a credit card, the dealer has to pay the fee to the credit card company even if the item is returned and a refund is made. This can be costly for the small online dealers we usually deal with.
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Serendipity		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1326 09/17/2009 22:05	The smaller dealers have given me a good explanation for restocking fees. When an item is charged on a credit card, the dealer has to pay the fee to the credit card company even if the item is returned and a refund is made. This can be costly for the small online dealers we usually deal with. Hmmm, 15% credit card fees? richard
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Titelines		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1465 09/18/2009 08:57 Admin	Serendipity wrote: The smaller dealers have given me a good explanation for restocking fees. When an item is charged on a credit card, the dealer has to pay the fee to the credit card company even if the item is returned and a refund is made. This can be costly for the small online dealers we usually deal with. Hmmm, 15% credit card fees? richard I've seen it as high as 5% per transaction, so, coming in, and going out, that's 10%. And as mentioned above, if the brand new item comes back dented, scratched, or dinged, the seller will have to re-sell that item at a loss, since he/she can't sell it as new anymore. Not everyone handles new merchandise with the care we might, and the time taken to handle a return is time taken away from making and/or selling a new item. If you were a small business owner, would you enjoy working for free? Mark Si vis pacem, para bellum. Last Edited By: Titelines 09/18/2009 09:01. Edited 1 time.
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Alaric11		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 55 09/18/2009 09:25	maybe a couple of those because I just didn't like their action or feel. I must say this is something I would NOT do. IMO, one should do the research before purchasing. It doesn't seem fair to buy and THEN test the action and feel and back out. Of course, if the seller is aware you may do this (explicitly) or you have told them then that is different. Sometimes you just have to own up to a mistake and sell at a loss on e-bay or whatever. I tend to agree that the re-stocking fee is reasonable given, torn packaging, shipping, credit card or paypal fees, etc..
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pvansch1		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4792 09/18/2009 09:26 Moderator	Not to mention, you buy a $500 item, the seller spends $300 to buy the item and puts maybe $200 in his / her pocket and needs to pay rent, buy food to support his or her self. Now you return it and the seller now needs to come up with $500 to give back. So a restocking fee can be minimal compared to the out of pocket expense to the seller never mind if the seller cen't resell as new. Pete
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teter		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1418 09/18/2009 22:03	Alaric11 wrote: maybe a couple of those because I just didn't like their action or feel. I must say this is something I would NOT do. IMO, one should do the research before purchasing. It doesn't seem fair to buy and THEN test the action and feel and back out. Of course, if the seller is aware you may do this (explicitly) or you have told them then that is different. Sometimes you just have to own up to a mistake and sell at a loss on e-bay or whatever. I tend to agree that the re-stocking fee is reasonable given, torn packaging, shipping, credit card or paypal fees, etc.. Thanks, Alaric. I think after buying a hundred or more bamboo rods over the last decade and only returned a couple because I was disappointed by them, I have pretty much figured out the "research" part. I'm not sure I understand what you mean, "own up to a mistake." Are you saying that it's a mistake to be disappointed in a product you have spent hundreds, or thousands, of dollars on, and that you're obligated to keep it as some sort of penance? This just doesn't make sense to me. I think virtually all of the dealers, rodmakers and private sellers I have bought rods from over the years want and expect the buyer to be satisfied. Many of them, in fact, make that part of their advertising pitch. I have sold several thousand dollars worth of rods myself, and I did so, under rules of this board, knowing that I was obligated to give full refunds if the buyers decided within the stated inspection period that they did not want them. And it's not "backing out" if you have paid for the item and it has been delivered to you with the understanding that it can be returned if not satisfactory. That's a mutual business agreement. As for "torn packaging, shipping, credit card or paypal fees," those are costs of doing business. Many of those costs are paid by the buyer anyway.
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teter		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1419 09/18/2009 22:11	Titelines wrote: Serendipity wrote: The smaller dealers have given me a good explanation for restocking fees. When an item is charged on a credit card, the dealer has to pay the fee to the credit card company even if the item is returned and a refund is made. This can be costly for the small online dealers we usually deal with. Hmmm, 15% credit card fees? richard I've seen it as high as 5% per transaction, so, coming in, and going out, that's 10%. And as mentioned above, if the brand new item comes back dented, scratched, or dinged, the seller will have to re-sell that item at a loss, since he/she can't sell it as new anymore. Not everyone handles new merchandise with the care we might, and the time taken to handle a return is time taken away from making and/or selling a new item. If you were a small business owner, would you enjoy working for free? Mark I have the utmost respect for dealers who are small business owners, and I am fully aware that they are walking an economic tightrope. I have been a laid off factory worker and a white-collar worker whose salary was cut. Luckily, unlike my grandfather, who went broke extending credit to his store customers, I have never had to run my own small business. But I was taught that satisfying the customer, even if you lose money on a return or refund, is an essential part of doing business. I'm not saying the "customer is always right," but I absolutely believe that the seller who penalizes buyers for being dissatisfied is only hurting himself. And of course I'm not talking about merchandise that has been damaged BY THE BUYER. That obviously changes the rules. Last Edited By: teter 09/18/2009 23:39. Edited 2 times.
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bob2935	Restocking fees	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 831 09/18/2009 23:16	I do not agree with any type of restocking fee and simply will not do business with any tackle seller that has that as their policy. To me it's a big mistake because as a serious collector of cane I do occasionally run into cane rods that are not as described, taper is not my style or for what ever reason I do not like the rod. What I always do with a new rod is be super careful with the rod until I decide it is a keeper. We are talking big bucks here. I do know there are customer's that return just about everything they see and if I was a dealer I simply would not deal with this type of buyer. Tire kicker's and just plan turkeys are part of business and what I do with my own little business is simply refuse to sell to people that are difficult. I do fully understand why some tackle dealers make the seller pay for postage both ways if a rod is returned. I have no problems with that. It is a big mistake to have such a policy in the rare and high end cane rod business. It is a very small group of fanatic's that are willing spend insane amounts of money on tackle and to me you are losing a tremendous amount of business when you have such a policy. I also feel most experienced collectors are very selective in terms of what like in a good fly rod and everyone has different preferences. I like the slow to medium tapers of Ted Simroe and Robert Bolt but the next guy might hate something that progressive. Bohemian Bob
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Alaric11		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 58 09/18/2009 23:34	@ Teter My point was made with care. IF the seller understands {explicitly---not YOUR assumption] that when you buy a rod that one criterion for rejection is going to be that you simply "don't like the feel or the action" ---then that is fine. Perhaps large dealers tacitly make such an assumption. I DON'T. When I bought my Payne 400 from Codella I inspected the rod to make sure it was as it was advertised. I did not assume that I could then go out and lawn cast it to see if I really like it or not. IF it is as advertised then---on my ethical outlook---I'm stuck; I've bought a rod whether I like the action or not. If this were NOT the rule of behavior what would stop people from purely speculative purchases: "I've always wanted to cast a Fario Club---I'll order one and if I don't like the way it casts I'll return it." I just sold a Maurer rod. I haven't heard yet as to "approval". The rod is exactly as advertised and I have a glowing, perfect record of ebullient people who have bought stuff from me at an auction site. IF the person casts it and says:" oh no" I will suffer pretty big % losses on the return, ie, shipping, paypal fee , packaging, insurance. The BUYER should expect THAT Maurer rod and know whether or not it has the action and feel he wants. You are free to follow your own moral compass. For me, if I intended to test the action and feel of a rod I purchased as part of the test for keeping it I would feel obliged to tell the seller that before placing an order, ie, "look I've never cast one of these things and I don't want to keep it if I don't like the feel." If he was still willing to ship then that would be fair. I think the "normal" rule should be "object is as advertised"---of course this could get murky "you said excellent and I think it is VG++". There IS an overidding rule I follow: "act like a gentleman even if I lose money---my honor and reputation are priceless." Hence, I often sell mistakes at a loss. Last Edited By: Alaric11 09/18/2009 23:37. Edited 1 time.
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Charlie in WA		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10 09/18/2009 23:55	I don't think restocking fees is the issue here, it is what justifies a return. Assuming rods, or reels are insured, there should not be a srestocking fee. I am a small business owner, and there isn't even close to %15 of fees. Normal credit card charges are about %2.5 with master card and visa. If the product is shipped in "x" condition, and it is not returned in the same condition, then it is either an issurance issue damaged in route, or not returnable because it was damaged by the buyer. Packaging is part of doing business, as is the time taken. Good business practices seem to be the issue here, not penalizing someone who returns a product because it was not described well, and returns it in the same condition. Like said earlier, I would not buy from a seller if restocking fees were standard.
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teter		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1421 09/18/2009 23:56	Alaric, it's hard for me to envision someone cavalierly saying, "I'll toss $3,300 this guy's way and see if I like this rod I've never cast, and if I don't fancy it, I can always pay an extra $80 to $100 (counting insurance) to ship it back." Are there guys who do that? Maybe. I, for one, don't shell out money for a rod that I don't assume -- let alone believe -- that I am going to like and want to keep. And yet, once in a blue moon, I am sadly disappointed. Twice in a blue moon, I guess. And I don't buy rods if I don't know the return policy. Never have. At any rate, I am glad to read your endorsement of gentlemanly behavior. The world can certainly always use more of that.
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Charlie in WA		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 11 09/19/2009 00:01	teter, well put! If I buy something, I don't want to pay for shipping and take the time to return it unless I really want to keep it. The only time I return anything is if it is not as described.
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Horace Benbow		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 14 09/19/2009 07:51	Putting the little guys aside for a moment --they're not typically very sophisticated marketers and just do what they (sometimes shortsightedly; sometimes downright blindly) think they have to-- it all just comes down to cold hard business calculations as to what set of policies will ultimately maximize revenues and profits. Lands' End, for example, famously went way beyond merely accepting returns without charging re-stocking fees and came up with "Guaranteed. Period." Nice guys? Highly ethical? Perhaps, perhaps not. But the policy and slogan arose out of the belief that the good will would generate enough additional revenue to more than off-set the losses. The pendulum tends to swing. As more and more businesses adopt, say, "Guaranteed.Period.", eventually nobody reaps any benefits in terms of good will since the policy simply becomes taken for granted as the norm as opposed to a "value added" proposition. And so the calculus changes and someone decides, "Screw this; there's no good will up-side and I've got a warehouse full of distressed merchandise that I'm taking a pounding on", and institutes a re-stocking fee. Assuming the world doesn't cave in on them (it usually doesn't, if they have a strong brand/product/business) others follow suit until that becomes the norm. At which point, of course, the opportunity arises for someone to differentiate themselves by announcing "Guaranteed. Period." Stir, shake, repeat, world without end, amen. As a consumer, I'm with teter and don't like paying re-stocking fees (who does?), so I don't do business with people who charge them. Most reputable companies still don't, so those that do are fighting a rear-guard action and will probably have to relent. But of course the closer the seller's offerings come to being unique --like a Payne fly rod-- as opposed to a commodity --like a toaster-- the easier it becomes for the seller to get away with doing any damn thing he wants to and the potential customer has to decide if he's willing to have standing up for his principles sting a little bit.
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softstick	re: Restocking fees	#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 655 09/19/2009 10:49	I will chime in as a small business owner and so far the only dealer that visits this site to do so. I personally do not believe in a restocking fee. I fully understand the perils financially speaking in doing so. Right now I'm not set up for credit cards so I don't get hurt that way. The only way I could get hurt fee wise is doing a transaction through Paypal. Now, here's my other side of things. This was always supposed to be a part time gig. Until I was laid off in January. We're now in Septemer and the unemployment checks have run out. Now, as when I was employed I cannot afford to buy tackle and turn it. And I don't know of any rodmakers who are going to give me rods on consignment. So, I have to be extremely selective if and when I am going to purchase a rod with the intent of selling it to a customer. I would really like to charge a restocking fee given my current economic situation but................... But that's the price of doing business. And hopefully I'm doing it the right way. Best, Dan Left Coast Tackle Last Edited By: softstick 09/19/2009 12:12. Edited 1 time.
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PennsCreek	Restocking Fee	#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 69 09/19/2009 17:28	teter, You have stuck the landing on this one --- I have seen a number of nice rods that I would be most interested in owning but as soon as I see "restocking fee" the quest is over. I believe that the vast majority Bamboo Rod Buyers are highly credible individuals who will handle a prospective rod with great care as well as pack carefully if it doesn't suit. I never have nor shall I ever purchase a rod from a "restocking fee dealer" regardless of the price. "Restocking fee" is a red flag for me. A salute to the many dealers and makers that abide by our board member rules. Couldn't have stated it better: "That's a mutual business agreement. As for "torn packaging, shipping, credit card or paypal fees," those are costs of doing business. Many of those costs are paid by the buyer anyway."
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BlackHillsBill		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3070 09/19/2009 22:16	The language of rod accumulation and/or collecting is as subject to whim, romance, and fanciful language as any other form of puppy love. Consequently a time or two when I have squared for skimpy information regarding return policy, I have been burned. Teter's advice about restocking fees is a caveat emptor well worth taking to heart, not because we wish to cease being gentlemen, but because even puppies can grow into wiser old dogs. Over the years, I have read descriptions of rods that seemed worthy of dying for. And the descriptions really were--worth dying for, that is--while the rods themselves could be quite another matter. Accuracy of description is a rare talent, especially when it comes to noting exceptions to the overall condition stated in the listing. The seller's language usually reveals him for how principled he is. For that's some- thing which is very difficult to counterfeit. I enjoy studying it and the rod being offered simultaneously. There is a seller who sometimes places items in the Forum Classifieds whose descriptions are models of straightforwardness and accuracy and whose return policy is likewise honest and clear. If for any reason you're dissatisfied, return the item for a refund. Of course you pay return post, but you do not pay a "restocking fee." I tend to measure other sellers by his standards. As to the rod's action, that doesn't take much homework to figure. As to basing dissatisfaction on lawn casting, that test probably works better for a puppy trying to catch a poorly thrown Frisbee. Last Edited By: BlackHillsBill 09/19/2009 22:50. Edited 3 times.
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Horace Benbow		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 15 09/20/2009 06:10	You'd return a puppy? What kind of man are you?!
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